Tweet
RAGIP ZARAKOLU: "IN TURKEY, DENIALISM IS A STATE SECURITY ISSUE"
Ragip Zarakolu was born in 1948 in Buyukada, Turkey. The
dictatorships of the '70s imprisoned and persecuted him for his
publications. Zarakolu founded the Belge publishing house, the Demokrat
newspaper and the Human Rights Association of Turkey, in Ankara,
and devoted much of his life to fill the empty spaces on the shelves
of libraries. Recently, specifically, as he says, since the murder
of Hrant Dink, he became one of the most influential authors in the
revisionist movement in Turkey that challenges the official story and
touch taboo issues, especially the Armenian Genocide. In this interview
he gave to Prensa Armenia during his visit to Buenos Aires, Zarakolu
shows his views about current affairs regarding Armenian issues.
What's your opinion on Erdogan's statement?
It's an important declaration, but it's not enough. We must express
that too. But when we look at the general attitude of the Turkish
state and government, it's a partial development. But it's not
enough. Also, this declaration is a result of your struggle and
our struggle for the acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. For
example, we are working for the Armenian Genocide issue in the last
twenty years. In our society, especially after the assassination of
Hrant Dink, there are a lot of people beginning to reason that what
we said about Armenian Genocide is true.
Do you think that this statement was forced by civil society that is
changing their minds?
Sure. We are a minority in Turkey now, but we began to change the minds
of the elite, of the intellectual part of Turkish society. This is
important as a beginning. We had to struggle during last ten years to
huge sponsored state denialism. Turkish state gave huge founding for
denialist education, denialist publications, denialist conferences,
denialist courses. Also there is a high commission of coordination
committee struggle with genocide claims. In Turkey, this is a state
security issue.
Denialism is institutionalized.
Yes. It's worse that in the nineties and two thousand, with the
nationalist government of Ecevit and Bahceli: they organized this kind
of struggle directly connected with the state security. Devlet Bahceli,
from the MHP ultranationalist party of Turkey, was the first chair of
that coordination committee. Later, the chief of this committee was
Abdullah Gul, who was Foreign Minister. And now, it's Davutoglu. It's
a contradiction, Davutoglu signs the Protocols with the Armenian
government in Switzerland, and on the other hand this commission is
going on. Sure, it's not as active as during the Bahceli government,
but is a potential, an apparatus inside the Turkish state. So today
they may be more passive, but that doesn't mean that next year they
couldn't be more active. Turkey's government first step should be to
dissolve that committee.
Then Turkey proposed to build up a common historians committee
so they decide what it is. But that's absurd. It's not an issue
of historians; the genocide is a human rights issue. It can't be
an issue of historians, because they can select and montage the
facts. So it's a political, not an historical issue. Sure, it's a
very important part of Turkey and Armenian history, but historians
can't solve this problem. Only politicians can solve this problem. The
Armenian and Turkish politicians can solve this problem, like Israel
and German solved the Holocaust problem. And this cannot be only an
Armenian and Turkish states problem. There is also a very important
Diaspora section. In the decision, Diaspora must have the right to
say something. The descendants must have the right to say and demand
something. So, there is a triangle: Armenia, Diaspora and Turkey. They
can decide for the future.
For example, why can't Turkey give Mount Ararat to Armenia, as a
gesture? It is a mountain; there is no population change problem. Why
can't Turkey give Ani? It's a historical area, there is nobody
living. Turkish government can make a first gesture to show the good
intentions with something.
Do you think returning Mount Ararat could be the first step, and not
the last?
Yes. For me, it can be a first step. They can discuss it later. It's
an interstate problem, a border problem. Before, the borders were
unchangeable; but after Kosovo, Iraqi Kurdistan and now the Ukraine
questionâ?¦
If we are talking about self-determination, why nobody officially
accepts the existence of Karabakh Republic? What's the difference
between Kosovo and Karabakh?
It's a double standardâ?¦
It's a typical double standard. Turkey, like United States, is one
of the most double standard countries. "I can do what I want, but
you can't do it. Because I'm a bigger country and I have a bigger
army". This is a "bandit" policy.
What's your opinion about Obama's last statement, where he didn't
use the word genocide?
I have worked for years for freedom of expression. It shows how
important freedom of expression is, because the President of United
States made the censorship on his own real ideas. What is the place
of ethics? What is the place of self-respect? The same with Madame
Pelosi, Chair of the Democrats in the Parliament. She also accepted
the Armenian Genocide, but when she got a position in the stateâ?¦ If
you are a part of state you aren't part of an elite, you are part of
the citizens, of American citizens. This shows that there is a double
standard in United States.
United States may criticize Turkey for banning Twitter, but the
same United States censor its own ideas, without using the word
"genocide". If he didn't use it before, I could understand it, but
it's not ethical to take de votes of the Armenian electors saying
"genocide" and later, to make interests with Turkey state, you don't
use the word "genocide". Which is your real idea? Do you think it is
a genocide or not? I'm now suspicious about Mr. Obama's expression
about accepting genocide also. Meds Yeghern is an important concept,
but together with genocide.
There has been some discussions in the Perincek v. Switzerland ruling
about freedom of expressionâ?¦
I have a very clear mind on this question. I'm a human rights
activist. Genocide is a crime against the humanity. To defend genocide
is also a crime against humanity. It's not about freedom of expression,
this is out of freedom of expression. The hate speech can be a part
of freedom of expression? I can defame you, I can be a racist? No,
that's not a kind of freedom of expression.
Do you have any information about the Turkish government role in
Kessab attacks?
I wrote an article about this. In the last Kessab attacks there
was also responsibility of Turkish government, because the Turkish
government is tolerant with the passing of radical Islamists Falangist
groups in the border. There are rules of war, the Geneva Conventions,
and they don't even respect the rules of war. It is a crime against
humanity to kill people because of their beliefs or their race or
ethnic origins. We cannot be tolerant to help that kind of groups. It's
a very inacceptable situation for states diplomacy and also for the
rules of NATO.
How was your trip to United States and the Capitol Hill? Did you meet
the Armenian community?
Yes, the American community is very anxious for the future of
Christians Armenians in Middle East. They are very anxious because the
old history is coming back again. The same problems with deportations,
mass killings, emigration; many Armenians had to leave Syria to
Armenia. These are sometimes forced emigrations.
They also leave to Karabakhâ?¦
Yes. It's a double standard policy. On one side, Turkish
government demands rights for Turkish minorities but they didn't
respect the rights of Armenians in Middle East, or the rights
of Karabakh Armenians. Why did the Karabakh Armenians decide the
self-determination? Because there was a danger of a second genocide
by Azeris.
MatÃas Romero
http://www.prensaarmenia.com.ar/2014/04/ragip-zarakolu-in-turkey-denialism-is.html
Ragip Zarakolu was born in 1948 in Buyukada, Turkey. The
dictatorships of the '70s imprisoned and persecuted him for his
publications. Zarakolu founded the Belge publishing house, the Demokrat
newspaper and the Human Rights Association of Turkey, in Ankara,
and devoted much of his life to fill the empty spaces on the shelves
of libraries. Recently, specifically, as he says, since the murder
of Hrant Dink, he became one of the most influential authors in the
revisionist movement in Turkey that challenges the official story and
touch taboo issues, especially the Armenian Genocide. In this interview
he gave to Prensa Armenia during his visit to Buenos Aires, Zarakolu
shows his views about current affairs regarding Armenian issues.
What's your opinion on Erdogan's statement?
It's an important declaration, but it's not enough. We must express
that too. But when we look at the general attitude of the Turkish
state and government, it's a partial development. But it's not
enough. Also, this declaration is a result of your struggle and
our struggle for the acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. For
example, we are working for the Armenian Genocide issue in the last
twenty years. In our society, especially after the assassination of
Hrant Dink, there are a lot of people beginning to reason that what
we said about Armenian Genocide is true.
Do you think that this statement was forced by civil society that is
changing their minds?
Sure. We are a minority in Turkey now, but we began to change the minds
of the elite, of the intellectual part of Turkish society. This is
important as a beginning. We had to struggle during last ten years to
huge sponsored state denialism. Turkish state gave huge founding for
denialist education, denialist publications, denialist conferences,
denialist courses. Also there is a high commission of coordination
committee struggle with genocide claims. In Turkey, this is a state
security issue.
Denialism is institutionalized.
Yes. It's worse that in the nineties and two thousand, with the
nationalist government of Ecevit and Bahceli: they organized this kind
of struggle directly connected with the state security. Devlet Bahceli,
from the MHP ultranationalist party of Turkey, was the first chair of
that coordination committee. Later, the chief of this committee was
Abdullah Gul, who was Foreign Minister. And now, it's Davutoglu. It's
a contradiction, Davutoglu signs the Protocols with the Armenian
government in Switzerland, and on the other hand this commission is
going on. Sure, it's not as active as during the Bahceli government,
but is a potential, an apparatus inside the Turkish state. So today
they may be more passive, but that doesn't mean that next year they
couldn't be more active. Turkey's government first step should be to
dissolve that committee.
Then Turkey proposed to build up a common historians committee
so they decide what it is. But that's absurd. It's not an issue
of historians; the genocide is a human rights issue. It can't be
an issue of historians, because they can select and montage the
facts. So it's a political, not an historical issue. Sure, it's a
very important part of Turkey and Armenian history, but historians
can't solve this problem. Only politicians can solve this problem. The
Armenian and Turkish politicians can solve this problem, like Israel
and German solved the Holocaust problem. And this cannot be only an
Armenian and Turkish states problem. There is also a very important
Diaspora section. In the decision, Diaspora must have the right to
say something. The descendants must have the right to say and demand
something. So, there is a triangle: Armenia, Diaspora and Turkey. They
can decide for the future.
For example, why can't Turkey give Mount Ararat to Armenia, as a
gesture? It is a mountain; there is no population change problem. Why
can't Turkey give Ani? It's a historical area, there is nobody
living. Turkish government can make a first gesture to show the good
intentions with something.
Do you think returning Mount Ararat could be the first step, and not
the last?
Yes. For me, it can be a first step. They can discuss it later. It's
an interstate problem, a border problem. Before, the borders were
unchangeable; but after Kosovo, Iraqi Kurdistan and now the Ukraine
questionâ?¦
If we are talking about self-determination, why nobody officially
accepts the existence of Karabakh Republic? What's the difference
between Kosovo and Karabakh?
It's a double standardâ?¦
It's a typical double standard. Turkey, like United States, is one
of the most double standard countries. "I can do what I want, but
you can't do it. Because I'm a bigger country and I have a bigger
army". This is a "bandit" policy.
What's your opinion about Obama's last statement, where he didn't
use the word genocide?
I have worked for years for freedom of expression. It shows how
important freedom of expression is, because the President of United
States made the censorship on his own real ideas. What is the place
of ethics? What is the place of self-respect? The same with Madame
Pelosi, Chair of the Democrats in the Parliament. She also accepted
the Armenian Genocide, but when she got a position in the stateâ?¦ If
you are a part of state you aren't part of an elite, you are part of
the citizens, of American citizens. This shows that there is a double
standard in United States.
United States may criticize Turkey for banning Twitter, but the
same United States censor its own ideas, without using the word
"genocide". If he didn't use it before, I could understand it, but
it's not ethical to take de votes of the Armenian electors saying
"genocide" and later, to make interests with Turkey state, you don't
use the word "genocide". Which is your real idea? Do you think it is
a genocide or not? I'm now suspicious about Mr. Obama's expression
about accepting genocide also. Meds Yeghern is an important concept,
but together with genocide.
There has been some discussions in the Perincek v. Switzerland ruling
about freedom of expressionâ?¦
I have a very clear mind on this question. I'm a human rights
activist. Genocide is a crime against the humanity. To defend genocide
is also a crime against humanity. It's not about freedom of expression,
this is out of freedom of expression. The hate speech can be a part
of freedom of expression? I can defame you, I can be a racist? No,
that's not a kind of freedom of expression.
Do you have any information about the Turkish government role in
Kessab attacks?
I wrote an article about this. In the last Kessab attacks there
was also responsibility of Turkish government, because the Turkish
government is tolerant with the passing of radical Islamists Falangist
groups in the border. There are rules of war, the Geneva Conventions,
and they don't even respect the rules of war. It is a crime against
humanity to kill people because of their beliefs or their race or
ethnic origins. We cannot be tolerant to help that kind of groups. It's
a very inacceptable situation for states diplomacy and also for the
rules of NATO.
How was your trip to United States and the Capitol Hill? Did you meet
the Armenian community?
Yes, the American community is very anxious for the future of
Christians Armenians in Middle East. They are very anxious because the
old history is coming back again. The same problems with deportations,
mass killings, emigration; many Armenians had to leave Syria to
Armenia. These are sometimes forced emigrations.
They also leave to Karabakhâ?¦
Yes. It's a double standard policy. On one side, Turkish
government demands rights for Turkish minorities but they didn't
respect the rights of Armenians in Middle East, or the rights
of Karabakh Armenians. Why did the Karabakh Armenians decide the
self-determination? Because there was a danger of a second genocide
by Azeris.
MatÃas Romero
http://www.prensaarmenia.com.ar/2014/04/ragip-zarakolu-in-turkey-denialism-is.html