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INTERVIEW: SUZANNE KHARDALIAN ON GRANDMA'S TATTOOS AND THE FORGOTTEN LIVES OF ARMENIAN WOMEN
ianyan Magazine
http://www.ianyanmag.com/2012/01/25/interview-suzanne-khardalian-on-grandmas-tattoos-and-the-forgotten-lives-of-women/
Jan 26 2012
A still from the film 'Grandma's Tattoos,' which chronicles the fate
of thousands of tattooed Armenian women who survived the Armenian
Genocide of the early 20th century/ © Grandma's Tattoos Ever since
filmmaker Suzanne Khardalian's documentary, "Grandma's Tattoos,"
was screened across the U.S. and broadcast on Al Jazeera's English
channel, the response has been overwhelming.
"I've been getting hundreds and hundreds of emails and letters,"
says Khardalian, who directed and produced the film that chronicles
the forgotten story of the fate of women - including that of her own
grandmother - who survived the Armenian Genocide.
The letters, some from South Africa, others from India and just about
every other country you can think of, relay appreciation and at times
shock about the physical, emotional and psychological scars of Armenian
women who were distinguishably tattooed, raped and sometimes forced
into prostitution at the beginning of the 20th century.
Now living in Sweden and with more than 20 films under her belt,
Khardalian spoke to ianyanmag about the sometimes difficult process
of talking to genocide survivors, how easily women's narratives get
lost in the vaults of history and how Armenian women today need a
big dose of courage.
Q. Why did you decide to make this film?
A. Genocide has been on my agenda for a very long time. What
I wanted to do was do something about the genocide in Rwanda,
especially tackling the question of gender and genocide - a topic
we've only begun to start talking about. Usually, the fate of women
is not discussed. I met some of these Rwandan women in Stockholm at a
conference; these were the women who had been undergoing the horrors
of the war and the main problematic issue was of course rape, and rape
en masse, in hundreds of thousands, having rape as a strategy you use
during genocide to complete it. Of course I was thinking about the
Armenian Genocide in the back of mind and suddenly I came to realize
that when it comes to the Armenian Genocide or to the Holocaust,
there's so little written about the women.
The amazing thing is when you look at the Armenian case, there's a huge
amount of literature on this and all you read is "and the women were
raped," these very very short sentences...but no details, there's no
story about it. Give me an example. Do you happen to know the name of
an Armenian woman who was the hero of the genocide? Fighting that and
trying to survive? You don't have that, and it was very discouraging
and I was fascinated by that. Once I stumbled upon those photos,
the whole thing took on a very different aspect, the story became
very very personal, because suddenly I found out my own grandma was
a victim, she was there all the time and we had no idea about it.
I'm not a feminist, but let me say but it is very very strange to
see how even in tragedy the destiny of women is somehow by selection
taken away or forgotten, or amnesia is organized around it so people
will forget.
Q. Often in Armenian history and sometimes literature, Armenian
women's narratives get lost, do you think your film has filled one
part of the story, either as a whole or for your family? Do you still
have more questions?
A. Oh yes. Look there's so many questions that very few have been
answered. I still feel that my mom is not willing to continue because
well look this is something that is associated with shame and feelings
of guilt - where in a strange way you are the victim of an atrocity
but at the same time you feel you're responsible for that atrocity. I
have been talking to victims of rape, when you talk to these women,
very strangely they say the same thing. They're ashamed, they think
they're responsible for it Everybody thinks that the way to deal
with it is just to forget it. If you forget it it will go away,
and of course it doesn't go away.
So there's lot to discover, the film is only a fraction of what I have
been doing. A film is a film, and you have to limit lots of stories.
There's fascinating things to tell, I hope one day I can make a second
film on this, there's a lot to do.
Q. When you went to Yerevan to meet the 104-year-old Genocide survivor
- for me that was the most emotional part of the movie, because unlike
your great aunt, she was very honest and raw. How did you feel in
that setting?
A. I've been working with genocide survivors for such a long time now,
so I had been working with these old people all the time, they are
all very, very sweet and it's amazing to see how until the end of
their lives that these people remember things, especially in their
childhoods, there are certain details. I remember one survivor I was
filming in France, he had one fantastic segment of a memory. He said,
'I remember the feeling of my mom's blouse, that silk feeling on my
face when she used to carry me,' and that feeling, and I could feel it
my self, it's very very small detail, it is about your mom and what
'mom' is to you today, and just that feeling on your face about a
piece of silk. It's very abstract and it's very human.
When I came to Maria Vartanyan in Yerevan, she was sweet - what is
fascinating with Maria is that she is so lucid she remembers quite a
lot, and one more thing that was different, when I wanted to talk to
her, I told her from the beginning, I want you to tell me the story of
women, tell me what happened to the women. Do you have any stories like
that? And she said, 'Come back to me the next day.' She had a whole
laundry list of stories, about women she knew and what happened to them
and how they survived the genocide. When you look at the interview,
it is the first time I'm discussing a subject about sex or slavery
with a woman who is 104 years old. I was sitting there and she was
telling me for example, how her menstruation stopped and she was
praying to god that she would never get pregnant. Details like that.
She was telling me that the Armenian men became infertile, they had
no sexual potency left. The men too lose their sexual appetite. The
men weren't able to give children as well. She was referring to this
when she came to Armenia, especially from Turkey to Soviet Armenia.
Documentary filmmakers Suzanne Khardalian and Pea Holmquist at work on
Grandma's Tattoos/ © Suzanne Khardalian Q. What happened when people
were reluctant to speak with you about these topics?
A. I remember one case when I was filming in Fresno. I had met this
lady, she had a tattooed mother, but she had decided for herself
that her mom was not tattooed, people around her, they knew she
had been, but she had decided her mom was not tattooed, so it was
like talking to a wall, there was no where to go. It as the same
with Lucia [Khardalian's great aunt], you talk and there's a certain
barrier when it all stops. Working with survivors needs a technique,
I've written a book on this, how to film genocide survivors, it takes
time to build trust.
A major problem has been the family of survivors - they're not willing
to bring the issue forward. I didn't fight against this in this film,
it shows it's symptomatic of the situation we're in, as a community,
as Armenians, it's a taboo, you don't want to talk about it, I wanted
to show that people are not willing to talk about this.
But yet I think we have to talk about it. I'm interested in the process
of making this known. I think knowledge is very important in this
aspect, knowledge about the fate of the women is very stereotyped when
it comes to the Armenian question and changing that is a challenge.
Some said to me 'Why are u doing this?' 'Why are you bringing
this into the open, making it public?' 'This is considered dirty
laundry, this is disgraceful for our nation.' No I don't think so,
what is wrong in choosing life, because the way I see it, the women
who survived, even if they were tattooed, kidnapped, raped and they
gave birth to children of the rapists, all this for me is that there
were people who chose life. I want us when we talk about these women,
I want us to remember them, not as women who were raped, but as the
real heroes. Who were the one who gave birth, to all the Armenians
living around the world today. We are the children of these women,
we just need to accept and be proud of it.
Q. When you made the film and people began to view it, did you have
anyone else contact you whose grandma had the same tattoos?
A. Very very many. When I was going around screening this film, after
each screening, there were at least 10-15 people approaching me saying
'my grandma was tattooed.'
Some of these girls never came back to their nation, to Armenian
society, they had no chance, they stayed behind because they had
no possibility. Today Turkish society has started to talk, about
Grandmas that were Armenian. It's always Grandmas, not Grandfathers,
when they're talking about this...this brings up the issue of identity,
what is happening to Turkish identity. I think when we look at this
in this way, it becomes urgent matter to look into ourselves and
decide what or who makes an Armenian. And because this brings up
the issue, do genetics make you an Armenian? if that is the case,
look at these raped women who had children, these Muslim Armenians,
hidden Armenians in Turkey today , aren't we supposed to look at them
as Armenians? Are Armenians are only supposed to be Christians?
Making this film brings so many more questions, as a collective , for
how much longer every time an Armenian has slightly different religion
or identity are we going to throw them out, not take them as Armenians?
Q. What are some current issues in the Armenian diaspora, or in
Armenia in regards to women that are of interest to you?
A. One, when are we going to learn that women are as intelligent,
as talented and as motivated as men are? Not only in Armenia, but in
diaspora as well. Look at our organizations, how many women do you
see around you? All those committees, they create, how many women are
there? I think it's just stupid, ignorant to ignore the women. We
are an essential part of the Armenian nation and if the men decide
to discard us, then they're discarding themselves.
Unfortunately the women are as responsible for this too. There's a
lack of courage, or interest in political issues especially. I want
women to be involved in politics, and politics is not just becoming
a member of the parliament. If you're engaged in environment issues,
there's politics as well, everything we do in our lives is politics
at the end of the road. I want us to be courageous enough and push
the doors open with your elbows.
It's unfortunate, look we're living in the States, we're living
in the Europe, but still our women, when it comes to the community
you can hardly hear them. If a woman is responsible for a hospital,
or a big dept. somewhere or a physicist, if she has the capacity to
do that work, we should be able to trust the women with political
missions as well.
From: Baghdasarian
ianyan Magazine
http://www.ianyanmag.com/2012/01/25/interview-suzanne-khardalian-on-grandmas-tattoos-and-the-forgotten-lives-of-women/
Jan 26 2012
A still from the film 'Grandma's Tattoos,' which chronicles the fate
of thousands of tattooed Armenian women who survived the Armenian
Genocide of the early 20th century/ © Grandma's Tattoos Ever since
filmmaker Suzanne Khardalian's documentary, "Grandma's Tattoos,"
was screened across the U.S. and broadcast on Al Jazeera's English
channel, the response has been overwhelming.
"I've been getting hundreds and hundreds of emails and letters,"
says Khardalian, who directed and produced the film that chronicles
the forgotten story of the fate of women - including that of her own
grandmother - who survived the Armenian Genocide.
The letters, some from South Africa, others from India and just about
every other country you can think of, relay appreciation and at times
shock about the physical, emotional and psychological scars of Armenian
women who were distinguishably tattooed, raped and sometimes forced
into prostitution at the beginning of the 20th century.
Now living in Sweden and with more than 20 films under her belt,
Khardalian spoke to ianyanmag about the sometimes difficult process
of talking to genocide survivors, how easily women's narratives get
lost in the vaults of history and how Armenian women today need a
big dose of courage.
Q. Why did you decide to make this film?
A. Genocide has been on my agenda for a very long time. What
I wanted to do was do something about the genocide in Rwanda,
especially tackling the question of gender and genocide - a topic
we've only begun to start talking about. Usually, the fate of women
is not discussed. I met some of these Rwandan women in Stockholm at a
conference; these were the women who had been undergoing the horrors
of the war and the main problematic issue was of course rape, and rape
en masse, in hundreds of thousands, having rape as a strategy you use
during genocide to complete it. Of course I was thinking about the
Armenian Genocide in the back of mind and suddenly I came to realize
that when it comes to the Armenian Genocide or to the Holocaust,
there's so little written about the women.
The amazing thing is when you look at the Armenian case, there's a huge
amount of literature on this and all you read is "and the women were
raped," these very very short sentences...but no details, there's no
story about it. Give me an example. Do you happen to know the name of
an Armenian woman who was the hero of the genocide? Fighting that and
trying to survive? You don't have that, and it was very discouraging
and I was fascinated by that. Once I stumbled upon those photos,
the whole thing took on a very different aspect, the story became
very very personal, because suddenly I found out my own grandma was
a victim, she was there all the time and we had no idea about it.
I'm not a feminist, but let me say but it is very very strange to
see how even in tragedy the destiny of women is somehow by selection
taken away or forgotten, or amnesia is organized around it so people
will forget.
Q. Often in Armenian history and sometimes literature, Armenian
women's narratives get lost, do you think your film has filled one
part of the story, either as a whole or for your family? Do you still
have more questions?
A. Oh yes. Look there's so many questions that very few have been
answered. I still feel that my mom is not willing to continue because
well look this is something that is associated with shame and feelings
of guilt - where in a strange way you are the victim of an atrocity
but at the same time you feel you're responsible for that atrocity. I
have been talking to victims of rape, when you talk to these women,
very strangely they say the same thing. They're ashamed, they think
they're responsible for it Everybody thinks that the way to deal
with it is just to forget it. If you forget it it will go away,
and of course it doesn't go away.
So there's lot to discover, the film is only a fraction of what I have
been doing. A film is a film, and you have to limit lots of stories.
There's fascinating things to tell, I hope one day I can make a second
film on this, there's a lot to do.
Q. When you went to Yerevan to meet the 104-year-old Genocide survivor
- for me that was the most emotional part of the movie, because unlike
your great aunt, she was very honest and raw. How did you feel in
that setting?
A. I've been working with genocide survivors for such a long time now,
so I had been working with these old people all the time, they are
all very, very sweet and it's amazing to see how until the end of
their lives that these people remember things, especially in their
childhoods, there are certain details. I remember one survivor I was
filming in France, he had one fantastic segment of a memory. He said,
'I remember the feeling of my mom's blouse, that silk feeling on my
face when she used to carry me,' and that feeling, and I could feel it
my self, it's very very small detail, it is about your mom and what
'mom' is to you today, and just that feeling on your face about a
piece of silk. It's very abstract and it's very human.
When I came to Maria Vartanyan in Yerevan, she was sweet - what is
fascinating with Maria is that she is so lucid she remembers quite a
lot, and one more thing that was different, when I wanted to talk to
her, I told her from the beginning, I want you to tell me the story of
women, tell me what happened to the women. Do you have any stories like
that? And she said, 'Come back to me the next day.' She had a whole
laundry list of stories, about women she knew and what happened to them
and how they survived the genocide. When you look at the interview,
it is the first time I'm discussing a subject about sex or slavery
with a woman who is 104 years old. I was sitting there and she was
telling me for example, how her menstruation stopped and she was
praying to god that she would never get pregnant. Details like that.
She was telling me that the Armenian men became infertile, they had
no sexual potency left. The men too lose their sexual appetite. The
men weren't able to give children as well. She was referring to this
when she came to Armenia, especially from Turkey to Soviet Armenia.
Documentary filmmakers Suzanne Khardalian and Pea Holmquist at work on
Grandma's Tattoos/ © Suzanne Khardalian Q. What happened when people
were reluctant to speak with you about these topics?
A. I remember one case when I was filming in Fresno. I had met this
lady, she had a tattooed mother, but she had decided for herself
that her mom was not tattooed, people around her, they knew she
had been, but she had decided her mom was not tattooed, so it was
like talking to a wall, there was no where to go. It as the same
with Lucia [Khardalian's great aunt], you talk and there's a certain
barrier when it all stops. Working with survivors needs a technique,
I've written a book on this, how to film genocide survivors, it takes
time to build trust.
A major problem has been the family of survivors - they're not willing
to bring the issue forward. I didn't fight against this in this film,
it shows it's symptomatic of the situation we're in, as a community,
as Armenians, it's a taboo, you don't want to talk about it, I wanted
to show that people are not willing to talk about this.
But yet I think we have to talk about it. I'm interested in the process
of making this known. I think knowledge is very important in this
aspect, knowledge about the fate of the women is very stereotyped when
it comes to the Armenian question and changing that is a challenge.
Some said to me 'Why are u doing this?' 'Why are you bringing
this into the open, making it public?' 'This is considered dirty
laundry, this is disgraceful for our nation.' No I don't think so,
what is wrong in choosing life, because the way I see it, the women
who survived, even if they were tattooed, kidnapped, raped and they
gave birth to children of the rapists, all this for me is that there
were people who chose life. I want us when we talk about these women,
I want us to remember them, not as women who were raped, but as the
real heroes. Who were the one who gave birth, to all the Armenians
living around the world today. We are the children of these women,
we just need to accept and be proud of it.
Q. When you made the film and people began to view it, did you have
anyone else contact you whose grandma had the same tattoos?
A. Very very many. When I was going around screening this film, after
each screening, there were at least 10-15 people approaching me saying
'my grandma was tattooed.'
Some of these girls never came back to their nation, to Armenian
society, they had no chance, they stayed behind because they had
no possibility. Today Turkish society has started to talk, about
Grandmas that were Armenian. It's always Grandmas, not Grandfathers,
when they're talking about this...this brings up the issue of identity,
what is happening to Turkish identity. I think when we look at this
in this way, it becomes urgent matter to look into ourselves and
decide what or who makes an Armenian. And because this brings up
the issue, do genetics make you an Armenian? if that is the case,
look at these raped women who had children, these Muslim Armenians,
hidden Armenians in Turkey today , aren't we supposed to look at them
as Armenians? Are Armenians are only supposed to be Christians?
Making this film brings so many more questions, as a collective , for
how much longer every time an Armenian has slightly different religion
or identity are we going to throw them out, not take them as Armenians?
Q. What are some current issues in the Armenian diaspora, or in
Armenia in regards to women that are of interest to you?
A. One, when are we going to learn that women are as intelligent,
as talented and as motivated as men are? Not only in Armenia, but in
diaspora as well. Look at our organizations, how many women do you
see around you? All those committees, they create, how many women are
there? I think it's just stupid, ignorant to ignore the women. We
are an essential part of the Armenian nation and if the men decide
to discard us, then they're discarding themselves.
Unfortunately the women are as responsible for this too. There's a
lack of courage, or interest in political issues especially. I want
women to be involved in politics, and politics is not just becoming
a member of the parliament. If you're engaged in environment issues,
there's politics as well, everything we do in our lives is politics
at the end of the road. I want us to be courageous enough and push
the doors open with your elbows.
It's unfortunate, look we're living in the States, we're living
in the Europe, but still our women, when it comes to the community
you can hardly hear them. If a woman is responsible for a hospital,
or a big dept. somewhere or a physicist, if she has the capacity to
do that work, we should be able to trust the women with political
missions as well.
From: Baghdasarian