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Transcript Of Charlie Rose Show: Conversation With Recep Tayyip Erdo

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  • Transcript Of Charlie Rose Show: Conversation With Recep Tayyip Erdo

    CONVERSATION WITH RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN

    The Charlie Rose Show
    April 28, 2014 Monday
    SHOW: THE CHARLIE ROSE SHOW 11:00 PM EST

    HOST: Charlie Rose
    GUESTS: Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    HIGHLIGHT: Turkey is an important country by any measure, it is a
    democracy in a troubled region, however, in the eyes of its critics,
    it is becoming authoritarian and less tolerant; the country is both
    modern and old, it is Islamic and secular, it has a GDP growth of
    four percent.

    ANNOUNCER: From our studios in New York City, this is CHARLIE ROSE.

    CHARLIE ROSE, PBS NEWS HOST: Turkey is an important country by any
    measure. It is a democracy in a troubled region. However, in the eyes
    of its critics, it is becoming authoritarian and less tolerant. The
    country is both modern and old, it is Islamic and secular, it has a
    GDP growth of four percent.

    And look at its geography, it is European and Asian sitting between
    the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Turkey is bordered by eight
    countries Bulgaria, Greece, Georgian, Armenia, Azerbaijan Iran,
    Iraq and Syria. The Syrian refugee crisis has cost Turkey billions
    of dollars as many have fled across the border.

    The Turkish Republic was founded after the end of the Ottoman Empire
    in 1923. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who was the first president and led
    the country from 1923 to 1938 is the country`s most revered historic
    figure. Many credit him with creating Turkey as a modern and secular
    nation.

    I went to Istanbul for a rare interview with Recep Tayyip Erdogan. He
    has been Prime Minister since 2002. His party has just been very
    successful in local elections. He must soon decide if he will run
    for president under a new constitution. He was considered a man who
    could be a bridge between the West and the Islamic world, he`s been
    unsuccessful in gaining admission to the European Union. Many fear
    he will look eastward for political alliances.

    Erdogan today is a source of some controversy. The Prime Minister is
    accused of coming down hard on anyone who opposes him. Prosecutors
    investigation corruption has been reassigned, Twitter and YouTube
    have been banned and demonstrators been violently dispersed.

    Some fear that in the process he is creating a more polarized Turkey
    with deep divisions. His most intense conflict is with a man named
    Fethullah Gulen who lives in self-imposed exile in Pennsylvania. He
    is a preacher and founder of the Gulen movement with followers across
    the world.

    Former friends, they once supported each other and then in the Gulen
    Movement served in the Turkish government in the police and judiciary
    especially. The two men are now bitter enemies and the Prime Minister
    has promised to go after Gulen and see Gulen`s extradition from the
    United States to Turkey.

    The Prime Minister made international news last week when he
    acknowledged the suffering of Armenians in the 1915 massacres, he
    stopped short of calling it genocide something Armenians have long
    demanded yet it went further than any Turkish lead ahead before and
    was praised for taking that step.

    I talked with Prime Minister Erdogan at his office in Istanbul on
    Friday night of last week.

    (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

    CHARLIE ROSE: Mr. Prime Minister thank you for taking time out of
    a very busy day to see me. I`m back one of my favorite cities in
    the world.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, PRIME MINISTER OR TURKEY (through translator):
    I thank you very much. I`m glad to meet you in Istanbul. I`m very
    pleased that we`re able to meet here.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Much has happened since I saw you last. Local elections,
    your party did well. What`s the significance of that for you?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, it shows confidence. It`s a vote of
    confidence.

    CHARLIE ROSE: The next election is for president. Will you be running
    for president?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: We will have the governing body of the political
    party. We will convene next week and we will consult and by mid May
    we will probably announce our decision.

    CHARLIE ROSE: This has been an important week because of the statement
    that you made on Armenia.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, this is something that I have been saying
    for a long time and every time I said this, I said that it was the
    Ottoman citizens, there were Armenians and others -- people belonging
    to other ethnicities who died in the event. And I always said that
    it is very natural and the right of all ethnicities to remember their
    suffering and we have to respect that.

    And they are -- they were citizens of the Ottoman Empire who are our
    ancestors, and what happened to those people and it`s remembrance
    is something that we have to respect. We have in our territory many
    Armenian citizens. Some who have passports, some who don`t, there
    are some who live here without passports, but we do not send those
    people away. They continue -- those Armenians continue to live in our
    country. And we also respect the rights, belief, freedom of both of
    Armenians of others we will continue to protect those rights.

    CHARLIE ROSE: They obviously like to use the word "genocide". It`s
    impossible for the Prime Minister of Turkey to characterize it as
    genocide?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: This is not possible because if such a genocide
    had been the case, would there have been Armenians living in this
    country? We have today citizens who have passports, also Armenians who
    are here in our country who have left Armenia. We don`t exclude them.

    We don`t send them back. They make a living in our country and they
    continue to live in our country.

    We are a people who think genocide as a crime against humanity and we
    would never turn a blind eye to such action. And we always say that
    this is a responsibility for the historians. Our archives are open
    and historians can come and look at the archives. We have military
    archives of the world and If Armenia has archives, they can open
    theirs, or third countries if they have documents they too could
    make them available and we can establish a commission made up of
    historians, and legal experts and political scientists who can then
    look at those documents and they can then come up with a report and
    we can all respect those reports.

    The diasporas is exploiting the situation and I don`t think that we
    should accept that. There`s no reason why we should have any sort
    of doubt or suspicion when we view Armenian citizens and that should
    not be the case and no one has the right to say that.

    CHARLIE ROSE: But you are saying you have to recognize their suffering
    and is there an apology there?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: This is our ancestors, this is not something
    that happened during the Republic of Turkey. This was during the
    Ottoman Empire and these are events that happened during migration
    and the documents have -- are very interesting. And if the documents
    show that our ancestors made the mistake and if the historians can
    show this, then we will not refrain from making an apology and we
    bear whatever the consequence of that is.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Let me turn you to other places that there may be news
    coming. One is Israel, because of President Obama and Prime Minister
    Netanyahu -- there was an apology to you on the telephone. There
    have been negotiations about compensation and other things. Where
    does that stand and what is necessary to see the relationship and
    exchange of ambassadors?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: First of all, I thank you for this question. I
    would like to thank President Obama, my friend, for his efforts
    in this respect because that was a step that was possible through
    his efforts. The apology on the phone by Prime Minister Netanyahu
    was a result of President Obama`s efforts. And there is an issue of
    compensation here and we have come to an agreement -- we might call
    this an agreement now -- we have come to an agreement with respect
    to compensation. And with respect to sending humanitarian aid to
    other people and Palestine through Turkey is the other step of the
    negotiation and where the completion of that phase we can move towards
    a process of normalization.

    And I have already spoken with my colleagues at the foreign ministry
    and I think we`re thinking about days and weeks in with respect. And
    I just hope that there won`t be another black cat which would change
    things.

    CHARLIE ROSE: But in a matter of weeks there may be full recognition
    between Turkey and Israel.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: A normalization process it may begin and the
    first step of that process would no doubt be taken by the sending
    of ambassadors.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Then there`s the question of the Kurds. You have begun
    a process. Where is the process and are you optimistic?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: This process is a peace process for a solution
    of this issue and the government has taken a very firm step in this
    respect. But despite all these steps, the separatist organization,
    in this election, too, has created some problems especially in that
    region, but I can say that we are at quite a good stage despite
    some of the difficulties. We have been throughout the process of the
    selection, too.

    And we look to the principals of democracy. And we are not talking
    about an organization with arms with threats. What we are looking
    forward to is the process of discussion, consultation, discussion of
    project ideas. What we would like to see is to have this process of
    discussion and conversation, in the process in the election as well,
    that is the Democratic process.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Now to the matter of Mr. Gulen, who lived in Pennsylvania
    in my country. What happened between you and him?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: After I became Prime Minister, I had not had
    any meetings with him other than a few phone conversations. I used
    to have meetings with him when I was mayor of Istanbul. And during
    my tenure as Prime Minister, we had good relations with this group
    for the first two terms.

    But the real problem began after 2011, after the referendum for the
    amendment to the Constitution. There -- there was an effort to take
    away some power and this effort involved the police security forces
    and the judiciary. My observation now in hindsight is that though the
    effort then was to consolidate this power with the security forces
    and the judiciary.

    And the first step that they took was against the Undersecretary of
    the national intelligence agency about the meetings that were going
    also. These were steps taken against the Undersecretary, the Deputy
    Undersecretary of the National Intelligence Agency, and they were
    unacceptable to me because the Oslo talks were talks expecting some
    good intentions and the national intelligence agency of any country
    can take necessary steps if, in the end, they result in peace and
    they have taken some steps. But in that process, there has been lies
    slander and because of those lies and slander, we had to intervene
    in the process and we are where we are, unfortunately.

    CHARLIE ROSE: I`ll come back to that. But did you just wake up one
    day and find out they had infiltrated your government so much so that
    you called it a parallel government?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: We were aware that they were trying to infiltrate
    various organizations but we were not aware of their ultimate bad
    intentions and we felt -- we realized this. After a while we started --

    CHARLIE ROSE: But when did you realize it? When did you know that
    this was a struggle for power?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: When they moved against the Undersecretary of
    the National Intelligence Agency. That was the first concrete step,
    because there were -- there was going to be another process that
    would follow that first step. December 17th, December 25th, these
    are the final steps which became almost a coup.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Almost a coup?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Yes, it was a coup. It was a civilian coup. This
    is what they were doing. If I had remained silent upon returning
    from my trip, things would have gone a different way, but I was not
    silent and when I came back from a trip abroad, there were hundreds
    of thousands of people at the airport who met me and that showed
    specific a specific stance. Then hundreds of thousands of people,
    millions of people showed their support and that changed things around.

    And the people have really stood firmly with us and we saw this on
    the 30th of March with 45.45 percent vote.

    CHARLIE ROSE: It is my impression that not only were they infiltrating
    the judiciary, the police, but you began to fear that they were
    infiltrating, wanting to control the intelligence operation of the
    Turkish government.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, there is an intelligence operation in the
    security the police forces and then there is the national intelligence
    and we`re trying to --

    CHARLIE ROSE: National intelligence is what I mean.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: The national intelligence is part of the police.

    We do international intelligence through our international intelligence
    agency.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Right.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: And they were trying to infiltrate those agencies
    but we have been trying now do a significant cleanup operation.

    CHARLIE ROSE: What does that mean?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: To give you an example, they placed a bug in
    my office, in two of my offices. And the moment we realized this --
    administrative action has been taken. And in the same way wiretapping
    of phones of the people at the highest levels of the government
    are listening to the conversations -- their conversations in their
    rooms or keeping the leader of the opposition under surveillance
    or members of parliament under surveillance, going so much forward
    that they went into the private lives of people. They also listened
    to encrypted phones and most recently, they listened to meetings at
    the ministry of foreign affairs. One cannot speak of the patriotism
    of people who are involved in such action.

    No group can ask for special privileges for themselves. They came to
    a point where they were looking for special privileges for themselves
    and we could not have done that and we are taking therefore determined
    steps to resolve this issue.

    But I have another expectation and that is the fact that this group is
    in the U.S., and it`s sad for us to see that such a group can exist
    in the U.S., because these elements which threaten national security
    of Turkey cannot be accepted to exist in other countries because what
    they do here to us they might do to -- against their hosts. No one
    can guarantee that they won`t do that.

    CHARLIE ROSE: So --

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: So I see them like an organization.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: And in fighting against this organization we
    have expectations from our model partner the U.S.

    CHARLIE ROSE: What do you expect? What would you like for the
    U.S. to do?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: They can be -- they can be delivered or they
    can be expelled. It`s as simple as that. If for example, someone is
    a threat to the United States and we get that information and if we
    catch them, we deliver those but we hand them over. I have done more
    than ten handovers like this so far and I would expect the same thing
    from our strategic partner the United States because these have been
    attempts to threaten our national security.

    2320

    CHARLIE ROSE: But you know --

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: They hand over to us so we can do what`s
    necessary.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Do you expect that you have to do that, to turn over
    Mr. Gulen?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: I hope so. Well, at least maybe they can
    expel him.

    CHARLIE ROSE: OK.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Because this is someone who does not have a
    passport. We canceled his passport and he left this country on an
    illegal passport. But this person now can live in the U.S. on a
    green card.

    CHARLIE ROSE: You know what your critics say. They say that you
    only began to speak out against Gulen when their friends in the
    judiciary and the prosecutorial element began to press corruption
    charges against your friend, that is when you turned against them,
    only because of the corruption charges that they were pursuing did
    you finally turn on them.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: These characterizations of slander began on
    December 17th, and there were things before that, actually. It did
    not start on the 17th of December. So when we look at what is going
    on, it is already clear now that there is significant corruption in
    many of the organizations that they`re involved with and we will be
    seeing unearthing these issues. When you have a firm position in the
    police and in the judiciary then there would be no one who would make
    claims against you. That is not a fair and just approach and they,
    too, will now see what justice means and they have already started
    leaving Turkey because they know what`s going to happen to them.

    CHARLIE ROSE: What`s going to happen to them?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, their crimes are numerous and when there
    are so many crimes and they know that they committed the crimes they
    are leaving Turkey.

    CHARLIE ROSE: So you`re on a campaign not only to root them out but
    to prosecute them but and find them wherever they are. And these
    were people though that were part of the judiciary and the police who
    brought corruption charges. Do you believe, because of the wiretaps,
    they were deliberately trying to do what? To find evidence against
    you that they could target you with corruption?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Mr. Rose, technology is so advanced that you
    can listen to people`s conversations and then you can play and edit
    a few sentences and the same thing is unfortunately happening in our
    country, has happened in our country. So the words you read out of
    my speech are correct. We will continue to follow this up and those
    who threaten our national security will be subject to the legal --
    due legal process.

    CHARLIE ROSE: And what happens to the charges against you if those
    people being rooted out of the government?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: I am very confident in this. When we came to
    government, Turkey had the GDP of $230 billion and our government
    brought this up to $820 billion. In 12 years, we went from $230 billion
    to $820 billion. How could corruption be the basis of such development?

    When we came to government, there -- there were a total of 6,100
    kilometers of divided roads in the 79 years of the republic, whereas
    in 12 years we built 17,000 kilometers of divided roads. You cannot
    do this in a country where there`s rampant corruption. We are building
    the third Bosporus Bridge over the Bosporus.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Right, right.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well Marmaris (ph) under the Bosporus. We are
    building a second tube crossing under the water under the Bosporus
    and they will be opened in this coming year. You can`t -- how can
    you do all of this in a country with corruption. We are building a
    fast train, how could you do all of this in a country with corruption?

    When I came to government -- when we came to government there were
    26 airports. There are 62 airports in Turkey now. There is hardly
    any location in Turkey which is not accessible by air. How could a
    country full of corruption achieve such development? Our public debt
    the GDP was 73 percent when we came to government, right now the debt
    to GDP ratio is 35 percent. So you can see how the improvement has
    grown. The borrowing interest rate was 63 percent now we have single
    digit interest rate on our borrowing.

    In Europe, Germany has a growth rate of 0.8 percent, Turkey has a
    growth rate of four percent. So a country with corruption how can a
    country with corruption achieve all this? I think this is all very
    clear for all to see. And it is because people appreciate that they
    have voted 45.5 percent in favor of this government. Otherwise,
    the people -- why would they keep a corrupt government in place?

    CHARLIE ROSE: I want to come to the economy in a moment. But let`s
    stay with this for a second. They also raised the question -- the
    question was raised that you look back at the same people who were
    there prosecuting the military and you seem to agree with it at the
    time. But then when they came after you, you looked back at what they
    did to the military and said maybe that was not good.

    Have you changed your mind about the legitimacy of the prosecution
    against the military?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Let me tell you one thing. We are always against
    wrongdoing. When the Chief of General Staff was arrested, I made
    some statements then. If you go back and look at those statements,
    you will see that I have said that I did not think it`s right for him
    to be kept in custody in (INAUDIBLE) and be prosecuted in this way
    and I also said at the time that it was not these courts but that
    he should have been subject to the judgment of the higher judicial
    bodies and the constitutional courts, not the courts where he was
    tried. This is what I said at the time and this is what I still say.

    Of course, if there is a mistake, if there is evidence to support
    any wrongdoing, then the judiciary will make the right decision. The
    judiciary is not attached to the Prime Ministry.

    CHARLIE ROSE: But because it is the people that you were rooting out
    of the government who were doing the prosecuting, are you now saying
    maybe we should go back and look at that prosecution and see if it
    was wrong? Because once they turned on you, you began to look at them
    and some of them, as you said, you have fired them or reassigned them.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: I think these are all characterizations. This
    is not true. It was not the decisions of the people involved on the
    17th of December and the 25th of December who made the decisions for
    (INAUDIBLE).

    CHARLIE ROSE: Right, right.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: They were different judges and public prosecutors
    so they were not one and the same. And there is also the court of
    causation (ph) aspect, and this was a privilege we provided to the
    constitutional court and the constitutional court when these people
    exercised that right, made a decision, and this led to this process of
    retrying these people. They are not acquitted. They will be tried,
    but they will be tried without being detained. This is what the
    process is about. And it has nothing to do with the judges and the
    public prosecutors as such.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Many people in Turkey have -- and obviously, you have
    high ratings and you just had a victory at the polls -- when you
    came to power were enthusiastic the liberal elements of the society,
    conservative elements of society, people of all religious faiths had
    great confidence. Turkey`s economic growth rate was up to seven --
    to six percent and seven percent.

    Some, now, look at some of the things and say they fear a descent
    into authoritarianism. They talk about respect for the rule of law,
    you know. They talk about shutting down Twitter and shutting down
    protests with the result of the loss of life and they worry. And they
    express this idea that Turkey is becoming too authoritarian because
    you`re too skillful as a politician.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Mr. Rose, do you believe in me?

    CHARLIE ROSE: I`m repeating what I hear and what I read from people
    in Turkey. So I`m asking you because you get a media opportunity to
    have a dialogue about it.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, let me tell you the following. In a local
    election, if people vote 45.5 percent in favor of a person and you
    think him a dictator, you have to really analyze the situation because
    the others in the political scene, 28 percent and less, because the
    dictator they`re talking about is a dictator, so-called, who can be
    subject to any sort of insult from the media, from the leaders of the
    opposition, and people can clearly and easily insult a person. If I
    were a dictator, how could anyone direct such an insult to me?

    In our country in this last election, there were in political parties
    which were voted for, and they were all part of the ballot box,
    and the elections were completed without any problem.

    I will add another thing. You talk about Twitter. This Twitter does
    not have an office in Turkey. It`s an American company and they are
    (INAUDIBLE) in Turkey, they are part of the informal economy, as such
    therefore. There are court decisions for example, those decisions are
    provided to them and they include, for example, insults to the prime
    minister or ministers, and we go to court, courts render decisions,
    but Twitter does not suspend those accounts.

    And on the other hand, the constitutional court disregards the legal
    system acts against the country constitution because Article 148 of
    the constitution is very clear. It says that all the domestic legal
    remedies have to be exhausted before a decision can be rendered. But
    the constitutional court does not take that into consideration and
    acts a court of first instance and renders a decision.

    So from a procedural point of view, the constitutional court is
    committing a significant crime, but because there is no other body
    above the constitutional court, what the constitutional court says has
    to be accepted and respected. But the law talks about direct individual
    positions. So if a person, an individual petitions the court then a
    decision would be rendered on that position. But this should not be
    an all encompassing decision. This has been clear in the constitution.

    This has been disregarded by the constitutional court. We talked about
    all this during a meeting as well. I say that whatever instrumentation
    is in the U.S. or in France or in the U.K. should be the case here
    in Turkey. The Internet officials came and -- the Twitter officials
    came and they were asked why they did not open an office because if
    they open an office then they can register here, they can pay their
    taxes and if they operate within the legal system, there`s nothing
    that the AL Party government would do against them.

    We`re placing Smart boards in schools and we are distributing iPads
    to students -- children. This is the kind of government that we
    are. A government like this -- why would we be against communication
    technology?

    CHARLIE ROSE: Is there anything happening on Twitter or YouTube that
    you would be afraid of?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Twitter has to respect everybody`s freedoms.

    Second, they have to establish an office in my country. Does Twitter
    pay taxes in the U.S.? I`m asking, do they?

    CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, they have to pay taxes in my country, too.

    They don`t pay taxes in my country and they insult the court decisions,
    they all should be taken into consideration.

    CHARLIE ROSE: OK.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: The court decisions have to be respected. If
    they don`t implement the court decisions, then what we do is we shut
    them down. They come, they open their office, they pay their taxes
    and then we tell them to go ahead.

    CHARLIE ROSE: No problem. So all this talk about shutting down Twitter
    is only about paying taxes? Only about paying taxes?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Not just paying taxes. It`s also about respecting
    court decisions. For example, there`s an insult to me, I go to court
    and the court decides that that account should be suspended.

    The court decides that but Twitter doesn`t do it or there are insults
    to ministers. They go to court, they win the case, and the account
    has to be suspended but it`s not. These are the reason why those
    steps have been taken.

    So Twitter has to respect the decisions of the local court. This was
    not what they did. That was the problem. And they did accept it when
    this was told them. There are also other pornographic things. These
    are all forbidden. They should not be there.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Of course. So even though you and the constitutional
    court had a difference of opinion, you don`t regret what you did?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: We do implement the decisions of the
    constitutional court but we also criticize it if necessary. It`s one
    thing to implement a decision. It`s another thing to respect that
    decision. I think we have to make a distinction there.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Do you believe the constitutional court is trying to
    get into politics?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, there are such decisions, or if you look
    at the statement today --

    CHARLIE ROSE: Yes, specifically today. They`re not talking only
    about legal issues. It is also political. We want the judges,
    the judiciary to talk through their decisions. We do not accept in
    getting in any way in freedom of expressions but today the president
    of the constitutional court made the speech. The president was there,
    the speaker of the parliament was there, the prime minister was there,
    the deputy prime minister was there and it was as if he was lecturing
    them and he does not have that right.

    He should talk about his area with his colleagues. We`re talking about
    separation of powers. The judiciary, the legislative and the executive
    branches are in three separate places, and they should respect each
    other. If that respect does not exist, then there will be chaos in
    the country.

    And I was very sad to hear the statement today.

    (CROSSTALK)

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: I could have chosen not to go there today. But
    I went there out of respect, and that`s why I went there today. But
    to see or face such a speech there was very sad for myself, for my
    party, for my people.

    CHARLIE ROSE: And your --

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: I think the chairman of the -- or the president
    of the constitutional court will always be remembered with these
    statements and it will always be something that he will have to face
    from now on.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Let me talk about the demonstrations and what might
    happen again with respect to demonstrations. When you look at that and
    the death of seven people, what regrets do you have and what will it
    be as a guide for you if there are demonstrations in the square again?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Well, I`ll tell you other things when you ask
    me these questions. You have demonstrations in all countries, and
    people die in those demonstrations. Aren`t there deaths in the U.S. in
    demonstrations or in Germany? Or in the U.K., in Madrid, in Ukraine?

    CHARLIE ROSE: Because of the factions.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: It happens everywhere. Unfortunately, -- I say
    unfortunately because this is not something that we would like to
    see but they happen. If you resort to violence, then such unwanted
    consequences occur. Who is it that resorts to violence? It`s not the
    police. Those who resort to violence are, unfortunately, the people
    who are in the square who believe in the games that the illegal
    organizations play. And when they attack the police using stones --
    throwing stones or using Molotov cocktails, then the police react
    to it.

    These people, as you may have noticed, are not people who died as a
    result of use of weapons because the police -- our police would not
    use weapons. It would be a last resort. They would be patient. They
    might use water cannons, for example, or other ways, or tear gas.

    Our police do not use weapons to kill people. We have to be very
    sensitive to these issues. We never said no to protests. People
    protest, they can meet but we don`t agree on vandalism, we don`t
    agree on fascist (INAUDIBLE). We don`t agree with demonstrations
    which resemble terrorist actions.

    So what we do is we show some areas, places for demonstration, we
    provide those facilities, but people say they want to demonstrate
    anywhere they like, but this is not possible. It would not be in line
    with the law.

    CHARLIE ROSE: So there will not be a demonstration in the same spot?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: No, no. They can demonstrate. I also can
    demonstrate and have such freedoms, but I go to what is designated or
    the place that is designated. We brought together 2.5 million together
    in Istanbul for a meeting. And it happened -- they came together and
    they left in a natural period of time nothing happened -- not even
    a nosebleed.

    So people who want to demonstrate can go to those places and have
    their demonstrations, but places which are places for people to walk
    around leisurely or for commercial activity, these should not be the
    places for demonstrations because, if they are, you unfortunately
    end up having incidents that lead to people having their nosebleeds.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Do you believe it was a foreign conspiracy?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: There`s always foreign provocation in such
    events. For example, look at the events in Egypt or the events here
    or the events in the Ukraine. There are a number of similarities. And
    it`s obvious that they`re managed from certain centers and we have
    documents to show this.

    These are the same events. The scenario, in other words, is the same.

    And when we see these scenarios, it gives the impression that the
    button is pushed in some place and I believe that the intention is
    to create chaos in some countries. It`s sad to say it, but that`s
    what I think it is.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Do you include the United States in that?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Some groups in the U.S. may be part of this,
    or in the West. In other words, we have never claimed that the U.S.

    Administration has been a part of this. This has never been something
    that we said. But there may be some groups which may provoke.

    CHARLIE ROSE: From the United States. OK.

    Let me turn to foreign policy. Define the relationship that you would
    like to have with the European Union. And I say that because there
    are some who looked on you as a person who, if Turkey became part of
    the E.U., could be a bridge to the Muslim world.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: To me, this would be the most natural course.

    This is what the West expected and it was also what the Islamic world
    expected. But we have seen the degree of sincerity in the West with
    respect to this idea in the last 50 years. They were not sincere. And
    I mean the European Union here.

    The Islamic world believes also that Turkey should be a bridge between
    the West and the Islamic world and we still continue to think so. But
    the European Union is still not aware of this development, and we
    find it very difficult to explain to them or get them to understand it.

    Because Turkey is a country where Islam and secularism coexist, and
    Turkey would play a very important role in terms of the developments
    that could take place in the Islamic world.

    We believe our Western friends, the European Union, have to be
    sincere in the way they approach Turkey. We are still trying to open
    more chapters. When we came to government, there were 15 chapters for
    negotiations with the European Union, and then there were 15 members of
    the E.U., they have 27 members now. The number of countries increased
    in E.U., but Turkey has been kept waiting at the door for the last
    50 years.

    And this is not just about me as a person. It`s not just my concern
    as Tayyip Erdogan with respect to our confidence in the E.U. It`s the
    people`s concern with respect to the E.U. because we believed they
    would accept Turkey as a member but now people don`t believe that E.U.

    will take Turkey in as a member.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Will you continue to push for it?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: There are a number of developments in the world
    and those may have a bearing on what we decide to do with respect to
    this relationship.

    CHARLIE ROSE: And they are what -- what things in the world might
    have a bearing?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: If these delay tactics continue to be the case,
    as far as E.U., then we might have to look for other formations. There
    are a number of different organizations, and we may consider them.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Let me talk about Syria, because you have a border with
    Syria, you have refugees, and that`s an issue for you.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: There is no place we can talk about this. We
    talk about them at the U.N., but at the U.N. steps, unfortunately,
    that should have been taken have not been taken.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Because Russia has a veto. Yes?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Yes. So far, we have more than 700,000 refugees
    in our country. About 200,000 of them live in tents and container
    cities; 500,000 of them live in the cities and we have so far spent
    $3.5 billion for them. The support we have received from other
    countries for this effort is $150 million, out of which $50 million
    came from Saudi Arabia, $25 million from the U.N. and others from a
    number of countries. But the total amount we`ve spent so far is $3.5
    billion because we host them, we provide food, we provide education,
    we try to provide assistance to these people, and we want the West
    to be heard as well.

    We should be in close solidarity with the United States in this for
    example, but we`re unable to do this. Nothing came out of the Geneva
    talks. We are together with a number of countries in NATO. We have
    a model (ph) partnership with the U.S. so all those relationships
    ought to mean something.

    There are lots of people who are internally displaced, millions,
    and there are almost 200,000 people who have died. Doing nothing
    and just watching is unacceptable. Where is the U.N.? Where is the
    U.S.? Where are all these countries?

    CHARLIE ROSE: So what concrete steps would you recommend to change
    the circumstances?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: There were steps taken in a number of countries.

    In Libya, for example, steps were taken. And some steps in different
    ways could be taken with respect to Syria. Nobody takes into account
    what happened in Libya now, who did what, where it was done and
    it`s finished.

    What`s necessary is to have the necessary firmness the determination
    to act. Now why is this determination not there? There are sanctions
    imposed in many other areas but nothing much is happening here. When
    people die, people leave their country, and there`s no remedy for them,
    and this is a humanitarian drama.

    Chemical weapons -- it`s a delay tactic. I`m not fooled by the chemical
    weapons issue. 2,000 people die as a result of a chemical weapons
    attack - - that is considered a crime. Then, on the other hand,
    you have almost 200,000 people who have been killed by conventional
    weapons and that you totally disregard.

    If the result of a crime is death, then that crime is a crime. I`m not
    saying I defend chemical weapons. Of course, we have to do something
    against chemical weapon, but why don`t we act against conventional
    weapons? Barrel (ph) bombs, tanks, artillery are used to kill people
    and they are considered almost nonexistent. Where do those tanks,
    missiles, barrel bombs come from? Why do we not question that?

    CHARLIE ROSE: You have a good relationship with Russia. You respect
    Vladimir Putin, yes?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Yes, we respect and like each other.

    CHARLIE ROSE: So what do you tell him when he invades Crimea? What
    do you tell him when he puts all those troops on the border of Ukraine?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: In our conversation about Crimea, I told him
    that I did not agree with his actions. He said that they were there
    because the people in Crimea wanted to see them there. And my reaction
    to that was that there could be other countries in the world who may
    look to somebody else to come in, but that cannot be justification
    for that action. We should let those people stand on their own feet,
    and if there`s something that we can help them in that process with,
    then that`s what we should do so that they can stand on their own feet.

    And with respect to the Ukraine, there will be elections end of next
    month. They have to get necessary support for the elections to go
    forward as soon as possible and if it`s elections, elections have
    to be held because provocation may be made to prevent the elections
    from taking place, and that`s something that we have to ensure
    doesn`t happen.

    And I think -- I believe that it would be important to have a positive
    approach, and the people of Ukraine and Russia are friendly, they
    should be friendly, and I think that Russia should also recognize
    this process in Ukraine, and let us all hope that the end result of
    the election will be good for the Ukraine and we all accept it.

    CHARLIE ROSE: There`s finally Turkey and the United States. It was
    certainly said several years ago that you and President Obama had a
    very good relationship and would talk often on the phone. Has that
    relationship changed?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: I mentioned to you that we spoke a month and
    a half ago. We do not speak as frequently, perhaps, but we still
    speak to each other. Our foreign ministers see each other more often,
    the Secretary of State and our foreign minister, they see each other
    more often.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Is there more polarization than you hoped when you very
    much wanted to be the model for secular democratic and Islam being able
    to be all part of the whole? Because I hear stories of Turkey becoming
    more polarized and rich versus poor -- what`s your sense of that?

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: I would not agree with this. But neither would
    I say that there is no polarization. As you know, in a society, if
    the rich exploit the poor, the poor will not respect the rich. They
    would always be the rich in a decent way. But if the rich share their
    resources with the poor, then that relationship would move in a more
    positive direction in society.

    Our society is predominantly Muslim. Those who are more religiously
    observant always try to share their possibilities, their means with
    the less well to do. The ethnic structure in the country may sometimes
    lead to some problems. You may have political Kurds, Kurdism or Kurds
    using their identity for political means and then Turkish nationalism
    used against that.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Mr. Prime Minister, thank you so much.

    RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Thank you.

    (END VIDEOTAPE)

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