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Armenian minister rules out Azeri-US bargaining on Karabakh
Aykakan Zhamanak, Yerevan
19 Apr 06
Armenian Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanyan has said that he rules out
any bargaining between Baku and Washington on Azerbaijan's disputed
region of Nagornyy Karabakh. In an interview with Aykakan Zhamanak
daily, Oskanyan said he did not believe the USA would pledge support
to Azerbaijan in return for Azerbaijan's support in the Iranian
issue. Asked about Armenia's economic dependence on Russia, the
minister said there was no absolutely independent country and that
Armenia should be mindful of Moscow's interests in the region.
Although Armenia has handed over its major energy facilities to
Russia, it has still retained control over them, Oskanyan said. The
following is an excerpt from Anna Akopyan's report in Armenian
newspaper Aykakan Zhamanak on 19 April headlined "Today there is
still room to work with Azerbaijan"; subheadings have been inserted
editorially:
Relations with Turkey
[Aykakan Zhamanak correspondent] Mr Oskanyan, the 91st anniversary of
the Armenian genocide is approaching, and at its threshold Armenia
seems to have launched an economic war on Turkey by imposing an
embargo on the import of Turkish goods into Armenia.
[Vardan Oskanyan] I think this embargo has been imposed not because
the goods are made in Turkey but because of their low quality.
[Passage omitted: Oskanyan says that Armenia is a member of the World
Trade Organization and is guided by its rules]
Moreover, this move has nothing to do with the genocide anniversary.
[Correspondent] Does Turkey export only low-quality goods to Armenia
in line with a special policy?
[Oskanyan] If there is no buyer there will be no seller. Private
businessmen themselves decide to bring low-quality goods to Armenia.
So, they are to blame for this. One should not see any political
tendency in this.
[Correspondent] What are the developments in Armenian-Turkish
political relations? Has there been any development since [Turkish
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip] Erdogan - [Armenian President Robert]
Kocharyan letters or the process has been frozen?
[Oskanyan] There has been no development as such. There have been
only some contacts. You can comment on it as you like, but Turkey
does not want that [establishing relations], and this is the main
reason there is no progress. Turkey still cannot overcome its narrow
national interests and demonstrate a wider approach to regional
problems.
[Passage omitted: Armenia is ready to establish friendly relations
with Turkey without any pre-condition]
Armenia has done its bit, and today Turkey should make a relevant
step to normalize our relations.
[Correspondent] Turkey does not take that relevant step also because
of our attempts to have the genocide [killing of Armenians in Ottoman
Turkey in 1915] recognized. What is the final purpose of Armenia's
foreign policy?
[Oskanyan] To achieve the international recognition of the Armenian
genocide as well as its recognition by Turkey. This is the least
compensation that may be expected. That is our moral duty.
[Correspondent] Do you think we should be satisfied with this least
compensation or we should strive for more?
[Oskanyan] Today the recognition of the genocide is on our agenda.
The next generations will decide the rest.
Energy policy
[Correspondent] At the end of last year and beginning of this year
you said many times that Armenia should revise its energy policy and
should try to diversify its energy sources. Did you mean that Armenia
should give away its remaining energy facilities to Russia?
[Passage omitted: Oskanyan says there are two types of
diversification]
[Oskanyan] You probably mean the fifth unit of the Razdan power plant
and the talks on the Iranian pipeline [Armenia-Iran gas pipeline].
These facilities are located on our territory and they cannot be
taken by those who will buy them or take over for management. I do
not think they may have a negative influence on the whole policy of
diversification. [Sentence as received]
[Correspondent] Does that mean that the handover of a 40 km long
sector of the Iran-Armenia gas pipeline to Russians does not hinder
the diversification of energy resources either?
[Oskanyan] None of the negotiating parties have confirmed this, and
as far as I know, the negotiations have not been finished yet. This
gas pipeline will be filled by Iran, there is a strict arrangement
with Iran regarding this. For this reason, I think that
diversification is taking place irrespective of the talks. Moreover,
as far as I know, the fifth unit, the gas pipeline and other
facilities will be the property of the ArmRusgazprom where Armenia
has a share. There is a strict agreement with the Russian party that
the Armenian government will be the chief manager of that facility.
Thus, irrespective of final decisions, we retain control over our
energy facilities, which I think is important for ensuring energy
security.
Economic dependence on Russia
[Correspondent] The Armenian economy has found itself fully dependent
on Russia. After Russia raised the gas price, the Armenian economy
found itself in a crisis and made a desperate attempt to reduce the
price for some time. Given this situation, how do you assess
Armenia's opportunities to pursue an independent foreign policy? Is
Armenia independent when implementing its foreign policy and is it
free in its policy of complementarity?
[Oskanyan] It would not be correct if I say that we are absolutely
independent. In the natural sense of the word, today there is no
state, including the USA, which is absolutely independent in its
foreign policy. The point is not in being independent or dependent
but in correctly assessing one's own national interests. For this we
should accept several factors as a basis.
When pursuing our national interests we should be mindful of the
national interests of the countries which have interest in our region
and are friendly towards Armenia. This is a very important factor.
Being aware of the national interests of other countries does not
mean being under that country's control or being its outpost. We
ourselves want to do that. We should be mindful of the national
interests of Russia as well as those of the USA and the European
Union, and even China and Japan if they have interests in our region.
The next factor is that we should never try to play games at the
conflicts between our friendly countries which have interests in this
region. This gives birth to the principle of complementarity which
has been fruitful for us and has given us an opportunity to orient
ourselves correctly over this hard period of time.
Relations with USA
[Correspondent] Mr Oskanyan, are the countries whose interests
Armenia is mindful of mindful of Armenia's interests?
[Oskanyan] You should not draw parallels between Armenia and the USA
or Russia. If we were not prudent, we would have simply been under
others' feet, but if they were not prudent, this would have no effect
on them.
[Correspondent] [US Assistant Secretary of State] Daniel Fried
promised to tell Washington about our interest in building a new
nuclear power plant.
[Oskanyan] Today Americans understand this problem. Earlier they did
not even want to hear about it. Today they show interest and discuss
this problem, and I think there is a chance to replace the old
nuclear power plant with a new one.
[Correspondent] Experts say if the fifth unit of Razdan power plant
functions in accordance with the Russian party's option, Armenia
might never need a nuclear power plant.
[Oskanyan] I cannot prove or disprove this, specialists should assess
it. As I understand, as the USA wants to resolve a regional problem
via the nuclear power plant, today the construction of a new power
plant is real, and they are seriously thinking about it.
US-Azeri bargain on Karabakh ruled out
[Correspondent] Are you not worried that the Karabakh issue may be
viewed in the context of the Iranian issue?
[Oskanyan] No, I am not. At present we do not feel that. The process
is going in its own way and logic.
[Correspondent] The US and Azerbaijani presidents will meet in a
week, and according to experts, the Karabakh issue and Iranian
problem will be the pivot of their meeting. In particular, [US
President George] Bush is said to have some expectations from
[Azerbaijani President Ilham] Aliyev regarding the Iranian problem.
Aliyev's response may be only concerning the Karabakh issue. Will you
please comment on this?
[Oskanyan] If you mean that they will make a trade whereby Azerbaijan
will support the USA in the matter of Iran and the USA will support
Azerbaijan in the matter of Karabakh, I simply rule this out. I do
not think this is the USA's style to enter a bargain like this.
Moreover, bargaining may lead to nothing positive. One should not say
that Aliyev was invited to Washington only because of Iran's problem.
Today I think there is still room to work with Azerbaijan. The [OSCE
Minsk Group] co-chairs should try to bring our positions closer to
those of Azerbaijan's because Azerbaijan has extreme positions and
hardly agrees to concessions. Moreover, there is a serious problem in
connection with bellicose statements which in general negatively
affect the process as well as the situation on the contact line where
the cease-fire is often broken by the Azerbaijani party. In this
sense they are seriously working with Azerbaijan.
Today it is not just up to Azerbaijan to decide to go to war. Major
investment has been made there because we assured them that war was
ruled out. Thus, today Azerbaijan's and Aliyev's opportunities are
limited in this sense. Only in case of a sharp change they may take
this step, but they also understand that this will have numerous
negative consequences for them. Moreover, this might be the last war
for them as it might legalize Nagornyy Karabakh independence.
Recognizing Karabakh's independence
[Correspondent] What is the purpose of the Armenian president's
statement that Armenia will recognize the independence of Nagornyy
Karabakh? What may that give to Armenia?
[Oskanyan] The fact that Karabakh and Armenia are negotiating today
shows that we do not want to give a unilateral agreement to
everything that has been done till today. That is to say, we want the
problem to be settled on the basis of mutual agreement. But if
Azerbaijan starts a war, this means that it has decided to settle the
problem not with the help of compromises but unilaterally. That is to
say, they have already broken the rules of the game. If this really
happens so, Armenia will also have the right to settle the problem
unilaterally in a political way, the natural demonstration of which
may be the recognition of Nagornyy Karabakh independence.
[Correspondent] Nevertheless, if Armenia recognizes the NKR's
[Nagornyy Karabakh republic] independence while no other country of
the world recognizes it, will Armenia be internationally isolated?
[Oskanyan] I think no if we recognize Karabakh's independence as a
result of the resumption of hostilities. There will be countries
which will say - that is enough, Azerbaijan is starting the third war
[as given]. The recognition of Karabakh's independence by Armenia may
become the beginning of the legalization of Karabakh's independence.
New Karabakh proposals
[Correspondent] Today the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairs say that after
the Rambouillet talks [in February] they have new proposals to the
presidents and that you and your Azerbaijani counterpart liked those
proposals. How serious are these statements?
[Oskanyan] Actually, there is little truth in all this in the sense
that the principles remain the same, but they have tried to change
the wording of the points which the parties could not agree on in
order to make them more acceptable to the parties. But it is not true
that the two ministers liked the proposals since finally the
presidents should like them. I think that the positions will become
clearer at a next meeting.
[Correspondent] Do you think that at the next meeting the presidents
will be in an unequal position if the Armenian president does not go
to Washington on an official visit as well?
[Oskanyan] The presidents meet at talks as equals and it does not
matter what meeting they had before.
Aykakan Zhamanak, Yerevan
19 Apr 06
Armenian Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanyan has said that he rules out
any bargaining between Baku and Washington on Azerbaijan's disputed
region of Nagornyy Karabakh. In an interview with Aykakan Zhamanak
daily, Oskanyan said he did not believe the USA would pledge support
to Azerbaijan in return for Azerbaijan's support in the Iranian
issue. Asked about Armenia's economic dependence on Russia, the
minister said there was no absolutely independent country and that
Armenia should be mindful of Moscow's interests in the region.
Although Armenia has handed over its major energy facilities to
Russia, it has still retained control over them, Oskanyan said. The
following is an excerpt from Anna Akopyan's report in Armenian
newspaper Aykakan Zhamanak on 19 April headlined "Today there is
still room to work with Azerbaijan"; subheadings have been inserted
editorially:
Relations with Turkey
[Aykakan Zhamanak correspondent] Mr Oskanyan, the 91st anniversary of
the Armenian genocide is approaching, and at its threshold Armenia
seems to have launched an economic war on Turkey by imposing an
embargo on the import of Turkish goods into Armenia.
[Vardan Oskanyan] I think this embargo has been imposed not because
the goods are made in Turkey but because of their low quality.
[Passage omitted: Oskanyan says that Armenia is a member of the World
Trade Organization and is guided by its rules]
Moreover, this move has nothing to do with the genocide anniversary.
[Correspondent] Does Turkey export only low-quality goods to Armenia
in line with a special policy?
[Oskanyan] If there is no buyer there will be no seller. Private
businessmen themselves decide to bring low-quality goods to Armenia.
So, they are to blame for this. One should not see any political
tendency in this.
[Correspondent] What are the developments in Armenian-Turkish
political relations? Has there been any development since [Turkish
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip] Erdogan - [Armenian President Robert]
Kocharyan letters or the process has been frozen?
[Oskanyan] There has been no development as such. There have been
only some contacts. You can comment on it as you like, but Turkey
does not want that [establishing relations], and this is the main
reason there is no progress. Turkey still cannot overcome its narrow
national interests and demonstrate a wider approach to regional
problems.
[Passage omitted: Armenia is ready to establish friendly relations
with Turkey without any pre-condition]
Armenia has done its bit, and today Turkey should make a relevant
step to normalize our relations.
[Correspondent] Turkey does not take that relevant step also because
of our attempts to have the genocide [killing of Armenians in Ottoman
Turkey in 1915] recognized. What is the final purpose of Armenia's
foreign policy?
[Oskanyan] To achieve the international recognition of the Armenian
genocide as well as its recognition by Turkey. This is the least
compensation that may be expected. That is our moral duty.
[Correspondent] Do you think we should be satisfied with this least
compensation or we should strive for more?
[Oskanyan] Today the recognition of the genocide is on our agenda.
The next generations will decide the rest.
Energy policy
[Correspondent] At the end of last year and beginning of this year
you said many times that Armenia should revise its energy policy and
should try to diversify its energy sources. Did you mean that Armenia
should give away its remaining energy facilities to Russia?
[Passage omitted: Oskanyan says there are two types of
diversification]
[Oskanyan] You probably mean the fifth unit of the Razdan power plant
and the talks on the Iranian pipeline [Armenia-Iran gas pipeline].
These facilities are located on our territory and they cannot be
taken by those who will buy them or take over for management. I do
not think they may have a negative influence on the whole policy of
diversification. [Sentence as received]
[Correspondent] Does that mean that the handover of a 40 km long
sector of the Iran-Armenia gas pipeline to Russians does not hinder
the diversification of energy resources either?
[Oskanyan] None of the negotiating parties have confirmed this, and
as far as I know, the negotiations have not been finished yet. This
gas pipeline will be filled by Iran, there is a strict arrangement
with Iran regarding this. For this reason, I think that
diversification is taking place irrespective of the talks. Moreover,
as far as I know, the fifth unit, the gas pipeline and other
facilities will be the property of the ArmRusgazprom where Armenia
has a share. There is a strict agreement with the Russian party that
the Armenian government will be the chief manager of that facility.
Thus, irrespective of final decisions, we retain control over our
energy facilities, which I think is important for ensuring energy
security.
Economic dependence on Russia
[Correspondent] The Armenian economy has found itself fully dependent
on Russia. After Russia raised the gas price, the Armenian economy
found itself in a crisis and made a desperate attempt to reduce the
price for some time. Given this situation, how do you assess
Armenia's opportunities to pursue an independent foreign policy? Is
Armenia independent when implementing its foreign policy and is it
free in its policy of complementarity?
[Oskanyan] It would not be correct if I say that we are absolutely
independent. In the natural sense of the word, today there is no
state, including the USA, which is absolutely independent in its
foreign policy. The point is not in being independent or dependent
but in correctly assessing one's own national interests. For this we
should accept several factors as a basis.
When pursuing our national interests we should be mindful of the
national interests of the countries which have interest in our region
and are friendly towards Armenia. This is a very important factor.
Being aware of the national interests of other countries does not
mean being under that country's control or being its outpost. We
ourselves want to do that. We should be mindful of the national
interests of Russia as well as those of the USA and the European
Union, and even China and Japan if they have interests in our region.
The next factor is that we should never try to play games at the
conflicts between our friendly countries which have interests in this
region. This gives birth to the principle of complementarity which
has been fruitful for us and has given us an opportunity to orient
ourselves correctly over this hard period of time.
Relations with USA
[Correspondent] Mr Oskanyan, are the countries whose interests
Armenia is mindful of mindful of Armenia's interests?
[Oskanyan] You should not draw parallels between Armenia and the USA
or Russia. If we were not prudent, we would have simply been under
others' feet, but if they were not prudent, this would have no effect
on them.
[Correspondent] [US Assistant Secretary of State] Daniel Fried
promised to tell Washington about our interest in building a new
nuclear power plant.
[Oskanyan] Today Americans understand this problem. Earlier they did
not even want to hear about it. Today they show interest and discuss
this problem, and I think there is a chance to replace the old
nuclear power plant with a new one.
[Correspondent] Experts say if the fifth unit of Razdan power plant
functions in accordance with the Russian party's option, Armenia
might never need a nuclear power plant.
[Oskanyan] I cannot prove or disprove this, specialists should assess
it. As I understand, as the USA wants to resolve a regional problem
via the nuclear power plant, today the construction of a new power
plant is real, and they are seriously thinking about it.
US-Azeri bargain on Karabakh ruled out
[Correspondent] Are you not worried that the Karabakh issue may be
viewed in the context of the Iranian issue?
[Oskanyan] No, I am not. At present we do not feel that. The process
is going in its own way and logic.
[Correspondent] The US and Azerbaijani presidents will meet in a
week, and according to experts, the Karabakh issue and Iranian
problem will be the pivot of their meeting. In particular, [US
President George] Bush is said to have some expectations from
[Azerbaijani President Ilham] Aliyev regarding the Iranian problem.
Aliyev's response may be only concerning the Karabakh issue. Will you
please comment on this?
[Oskanyan] If you mean that they will make a trade whereby Azerbaijan
will support the USA in the matter of Iran and the USA will support
Azerbaijan in the matter of Karabakh, I simply rule this out. I do
not think this is the USA's style to enter a bargain like this.
Moreover, bargaining may lead to nothing positive. One should not say
that Aliyev was invited to Washington only because of Iran's problem.
Today I think there is still room to work with Azerbaijan. The [OSCE
Minsk Group] co-chairs should try to bring our positions closer to
those of Azerbaijan's because Azerbaijan has extreme positions and
hardly agrees to concessions. Moreover, there is a serious problem in
connection with bellicose statements which in general negatively
affect the process as well as the situation on the contact line where
the cease-fire is often broken by the Azerbaijani party. In this
sense they are seriously working with Azerbaijan.
Today it is not just up to Azerbaijan to decide to go to war. Major
investment has been made there because we assured them that war was
ruled out. Thus, today Azerbaijan's and Aliyev's opportunities are
limited in this sense. Only in case of a sharp change they may take
this step, but they also understand that this will have numerous
negative consequences for them. Moreover, this might be the last war
for them as it might legalize Nagornyy Karabakh independence.
Recognizing Karabakh's independence
[Correspondent] What is the purpose of the Armenian president's
statement that Armenia will recognize the independence of Nagornyy
Karabakh? What may that give to Armenia?
[Oskanyan] The fact that Karabakh and Armenia are negotiating today
shows that we do not want to give a unilateral agreement to
everything that has been done till today. That is to say, we want the
problem to be settled on the basis of mutual agreement. But if
Azerbaijan starts a war, this means that it has decided to settle the
problem not with the help of compromises but unilaterally. That is to
say, they have already broken the rules of the game. If this really
happens so, Armenia will also have the right to settle the problem
unilaterally in a political way, the natural demonstration of which
may be the recognition of Nagornyy Karabakh independence.
[Correspondent] Nevertheless, if Armenia recognizes the NKR's
[Nagornyy Karabakh republic] independence while no other country of
the world recognizes it, will Armenia be internationally isolated?
[Oskanyan] I think no if we recognize Karabakh's independence as a
result of the resumption of hostilities. There will be countries
which will say - that is enough, Azerbaijan is starting the third war
[as given]. The recognition of Karabakh's independence by Armenia may
become the beginning of the legalization of Karabakh's independence.
New Karabakh proposals
[Correspondent] Today the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairs say that after
the Rambouillet talks [in February] they have new proposals to the
presidents and that you and your Azerbaijani counterpart liked those
proposals. How serious are these statements?
[Oskanyan] Actually, there is little truth in all this in the sense
that the principles remain the same, but they have tried to change
the wording of the points which the parties could not agree on in
order to make them more acceptable to the parties. But it is not true
that the two ministers liked the proposals since finally the
presidents should like them. I think that the positions will become
clearer at a next meeting.
[Correspondent] Do you think that at the next meeting the presidents
will be in an unequal position if the Armenian president does not go
to Washington on an official visit as well?
[Oskanyan] The presidents meet at talks as equals and it does not
matter what meeting they had before.