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Dialogue only solution to Karabakh conflict - Azeri envoy to Russia
Day.az website, Baku
30 Jun 07
The Azerbaijani ambassador to Russia, Polad Bulbuloglu, has said that
dialogue is the only way to resolve the conflict with Armenia over
Nagornyy Karabakh. In an interview published on an Azeri website, he
said Azerbaijan would not be able to attract investment if it had a war
on its doorstep which made progress in talks with the Armenian side
that much more important. In a moving account of a visit he made to his
home town of Susa in Nagornyy Karabakh with a group of intellectuals,
Bulbuloglu said that despite opposition from certain quarters it was
the right thing to do. The following is the text of his interview with
Emil Quliyev entitled "Polad Bulbuloglu: 'I believe we did the right
thing by going to Karabakh'", published on the Day.az website on 30
June; subheadings have been inserted editorially:
A Day.az interview with Azerbaijani ambassador to Russia Polad
Bulbuloglu.
[Correspondent] Polad muallim [mode of address], your visit to Karabakh
and then to Armenia was a surprise to everyone. How did the idea come
about?
Meeting Armenian ambassador
[Bulbuloglu] It seems that as you grow older there is something in your
genes which draws you to visit your homeland. I have done a lot of
travelling, visited virtually all the major countries and continents,
and when I was on tour I visited all the republics of the USSR, and
during Soviet times I visited 72 countries. Then I stopped counting,
but I reckon that I must have been to over 140 countries in my
lifetime. But it may be the fact that it was virtually impossible to go
there that Susa became more and more the focus of my dreams. It was as
if my forefathers were forever calling me to this town. So it turned
out that a former rector of a conservatoire, a minister of culture, and
a very intelligent man called Armen Smbatyan, is working as Armenian
ambassador to Russia.
Even when we were musicians and ministers we very often met at various
functions. The point is that, because of their position in the
alphabet, Azerbaijan and Armenia are always put next to one another at
international conferences and banquets. We came into contact, whether
we wanted to or not. It would not be out of place, perhaps, to recall
that five years ago, when I was elected chairman of the council for
cultural cooperation of the CIS, it was the Ukrainian cultural minister
who proposed that I be elected chairman of the council.
Armenia was represented there by its ambassador Armen Smbatyan who
asked to take the floor. There was a deathly silence. Everyone thought
that since he was Armenia's representative, he would definitely oppose
the candidature of an Azerbaijani. However, he said that he believed
this was a correct decision because everyone had known Polad Bulbuloglu
for a long time, and Armenia believes that he alone should head this
council. The effect was like an exploding bomb. Naturally, such things
are never forgotten and so we got to know each other.
I would like to point out that many people become jealous when someone
associates with the Armenian side. But you have to understand that
talking with the Armenian side does not mean you have to take their
position. First and foremost, it is an opportunity to put over
Azerbaijan's position and set out one's vision. Apart from that
dialogue is also an opportunity to home in on mutual points of contact
and to seek compromises.
[Correspondent] When you were a minister you were against contacts with
Armenia. But when you were appointed ambassador your position changed
and now you are talking about the need for a dialogue. What was the
reason for your change of views?
Change of mind
[Bulbuloglu] It's true, I was once an avid supporter of avoiding
contact. When I was minister I followed this line strictly. What is
more, I tried as often as I could to block Armenia's participation in
any international events that might be taking place in our country.
There was one occasion when I cancelled an international conference due
to be held in Azerbaijan under UNESCO. And despite the fact that our
Foreign Ministry insisted on holding this event, I stood by my
positions of complete isolation.
But one must have the courage to admit that such a policy does not
bring results. Such a policy only alienates the two sides. And one
should emphasize one important aspect. Our generation that is people in
the 50-70 age group in Armenia and Azerbaijan - is going, so when our
generation goes and a new one comes, it is not going to see eye to eye.
But war is the very last and the worst solution.
On this trip each side had one TV cameraman and I noticed that within
half an hour of working together they were helping each other. In other
words, there is no substitute for human contact. You don't have to be
like an ostrich and hide your head in the sand and think that the rest
of you cannot be seen. Azerbaijan and Armenia, when they joined the
Council of Europe, gave a written undertaking to resolve the Nagornyy
Karabakh problem by peaceful means. Azerbaijan is a country which, as a
rule, carries out its international obligations.
Apart from this, we must take into account the fact that Baku-Ceyhan
[oil pipeline] is now in operation and will bring considerable profit
to the country. Many investors have put a lot of money into this
project. What do you think, who is going to allow a war when the
pipeline starts bringing in real revenue? Neither the US, nor Russia,
nor France is going to let us fight. In order to start a war, one must
break off ties with all the major countries of the world. Can
Azerbaijan allow itself to do such a thing? Recently in Moscow at a
very high level talks between Azerbaijan and Armenia were set up as an
example to other world conflicts.
We must realize that after a settlement to the conflict we will have to
accept the Armenians living in Nagornyy Karabakh as citizens of
Azerbaijan, and we must be prepared to have a dialogue with them. They,
too, must be prepared for this. We should not forget that they also
have a media which conducts propaganda against Azerbaijan. Nor must we
forget that in Armenia for years they have conducted propaganda against
the Turks and the Azeris. There is no denying that we have a similar
propaganda and the younger generation is being brought up, if we are to
call a spade a spade, deeply hating everything Armenian. This is not
the way to carry on.
Communities get along in Russia
As ambassador to Russia, I can say that in this country particularly
almost all the Armenian and Azerbaijani communities live in friendship
and it cannot be ignored that in many cases they do business together.
The communities help one another. Particularly now, when migration
questions have arisen, they help one another to resolve these problems.
Does it mean that Armenians and Azeris can live together in Russia, but
not here?
On a world scale we live in a tiny plot of land. Tomorrow, we three
Caucasian countries will have to answer no less important global
challenges as shortage of water, problems of ecology, and other issues.
We must be able to live together. For example, our civil aircraft fly
through Armenian air space, and if necessary, they are also given
permission to fly through our air space. Nobody shoots them down. We
are neighbours. There is conflict in every family. It happens that
families argue because of where they come from, but this should not go
on forever!
I have come to this opinion over a period of time, and so you must not
think that my views have suddenly changed. Anyway, the post of a
minister is one thing, and the post of an ambassador is quite another.
I have occasion to read a lot, a huge amount of information, including
special information, which is not available to the ordinary citizen.
Ambassadors are in the thick of things. Perhaps all this information is
the reason why I have started to think differently. As they say, there
is a time to throw stones and a time to collect stones.
We are gradually beginning to realize that we must talk and come to an
understanding. Even if we reach a state of war, the positive process we
have acquired from the talks will come to our aid. The president of
Azerbaijan, when he received us, said that he, as head of state, will
do everything he can, including using his contacts with intellectuals
and public organizations who will contribute to this understanding.
[Correspondent] Polad muallim, what do you remember of that day when
for the first time you crossed the contact line and entered Karabakh?
Visit to Karabakh
[Bulbuloglu] It is natural that I will remember that day for the rest
of my life. Because I have been in the house of my father which is now
a ruin. Believe me, it was difficult to hold back the tears when I saw
the ruined house of my father and grandfather. All that is left is a
mulberry tree on which my father used to sing when he was a child. We
saw his bust, with half his face missing. We once built a small house
to keep our valuables in and a museum for the servants. Fortunately,
both these houses are still there even though many houses in Susa were
destroyed. There was a woman there who when she saw me said
straightaway: "I know you, you are Bulbul's son. How nice that you have
come back to your father's house." How can I forget this when this
brought tears to the eyes of an Armenian woman. This shows that
people's feelings are the same everywhere.
I used to say to the Armenians that [eminent musician and public
figure] Uzeyir Hacibayov and [singer] Bulbul, apart from the fact that
they were Azeris, came from Karabakh and are the pride of these places.
If you want to live in this land, you must be proud of them. There are
Armenian military commanders who fought during the Great Patriotic War
and whom we Azeris - can be proud of because they are from Karabakh.
When we arrived in Susa they offered to take us through the town by
car, but we decided to walk. I took a handful of soil, went to the
cemetery and scattered it on the graves of Bulbul, Uzeyir Hacibayov and
[eminent actor] Suleyman Alasgarov.
Mentally, this was very stressful for us. When we crossed the contact
line, the representatives of the OSCE insisted that we put on
bullet-proof vests because there were snipers about. But we refused,
saying it would be a great honour to die in this land. I looked at the
Azeri officers and could see pride in their eyes. But what can I say
about what I saw on the road to Karabakh? Armenian signs, shattered
roads, old vehicles. This is a very long way from the development we
are used to in Azerbaijan.
Meeting with Karabakh president
[Correspondent] There has been a lot of gossip about your meeting with
[Nagornyy Karabakh president Arkadi] Ghukasyan. Could you tell us your
side of the meeting and about your position?
[Bulbuloglu] Journalists often ask this question. We have never
recognized and never will recognize this self-proclaimed republic. The
whole world also will never recognize them. But there is some kind of
public formation there. There are people living there who go to work,
go to the shops, buy food, and get paid. They do have some kind of
life. We cannot say they do not exist.
They have a leader. Call him what you will, but he is there. I must say
that Mr Ghukasyan speaks Russian very well and grammatically. He can
express his point of view. He greeted us warmly and said that the
arrival of the Azerbaijani intellectuals was a big day. He said: "We
welcome this step and consider it historic. We would like you to talk
with us, so that you understand our aspirations and our point of view".
I must admit I was struck by one thing that Ghukasyan said: "How can
you want to live with us if you cannot talk with us?" This is a logical
question, and it must be answered. Imagine inviting someone into your
home but at the same time not wanting to talk with them.
[Correspondent] What do you remember of the last time you were in Susa?
[Bulbuloglu] I have fond memories of the first folk festival Xari
Bulbul which was organized in Susa in 1989. There were about 120 people
there from seven or eight countries. We arranged a concert on Cidir
duzu [Hippodrome], where children used to sing "Karabakh sikastasi".
And even under the [Arkadiy] Volskiy committee [on Karabakh] I as a
member of the delegation went there to explain our relations with it.
This was a very unhappy visit, an unpleasant conversation, both with
Volskiy himself and with his people who were right when they said that
they could not understand what sort of government had been established.
[Correspondent] I would like to understand one thing. You saw what Susa
was like. Do you think that the Armenians realize that the occupation
has not been justified?
Occupation cannot be justified
[Bulbuloglu] I cannot speak for the Armenians, but, of course, the
occupation cannot be justified. There is hardly any life to speak of in
the town, it has been destroyed. Believe me, these five members of the
Armenian intelligentsia, when they saw our capital, probably went away
with the same thoughts you are now expressing.
[Correspondent] How do you feel now? After all, won't a lot of people
criticize what you have done?
[Bulbuloglu] I went to bed yesterday with a sense of having fulfilled
my duty. Over the past few years I have wanted to do something like
this. Some inner strength has always said to me that I must do
something. It is impossible to explain. You go to bed and you wake up
with the same thought. You talk to someone and suddenly this thought
forces its way through. We understood perfectly that there would be
people who will start to earn publicity from our mission and vilify us.
But wise and level-headed people understand that we have made an
important first step. We have broken through the 15-year old screen of
resentment. During my work as ambassador I have come to the conviction
that the path of talks is the truest path. I believe that we did the
right thing in going to Karabakh. I believe it my duty to express
immense gratitude to my fellow companions Farhad Badalbayli, Kamal
Abdulla, Azarpasa Nematov and Ilham Fataliyev who, without a shadow of
a doubt, agreed straightaway to my proposal of an unusual trip to our
beloved Karabakh.
Day.az website, Baku
30 Jun 07
The Azerbaijani ambassador to Russia, Polad Bulbuloglu, has said that
dialogue is the only way to resolve the conflict with Armenia over
Nagornyy Karabakh. In an interview published on an Azeri website, he
said Azerbaijan would not be able to attract investment if it had a war
on its doorstep which made progress in talks with the Armenian side
that much more important. In a moving account of a visit he made to his
home town of Susa in Nagornyy Karabakh with a group of intellectuals,
Bulbuloglu said that despite opposition from certain quarters it was
the right thing to do. The following is the text of his interview with
Emil Quliyev entitled "Polad Bulbuloglu: 'I believe we did the right
thing by going to Karabakh'", published on the Day.az website on 30
June; subheadings have been inserted editorially:
A Day.az interview with Azerbaijani ambassador to Russia Polad
Bulbuloglu.
[Correspondent] Polad muallim [mode of address], your visit to Karabakh
and then to Armenia was a surprise to everyone. How did the idea come
about?
Meeting Armenian ambassador
[Bulbuloglu] It seems that as you grow older there is something in your
genes which draws you to visit your homeland. I have done a lot of
travelling, visited virtually all the major countries and continents,
and when I was on tour I visited all the republics of the USSR, and
during Soviet times I visited 72 countries. Then I stopped counting,
but I reckon that I must have been to over 140 countries in my
lifetime. But it may be the fact that it was virtually impossible to go
there that Susa became more and more the focus of my dreams. It was as
if my forefathers were forever calling me to this town. So it turned
out that a former rector of a conservatoire, a minister of culture, and
a very intelligent man called Armen Smbatyan, is working as Armenian
ambassador to Russia.
Even when we were musicians and ministers we very often met at various
functions. The point is that, because of their position in the
alphabet, Azerbaijan and Armenia are always put next to one another at
international conferences and banquets. We came into contact, whether
we wanted to or not. It would not be out of place, perhaps, to recall
that five years ago, when I was elected chairman of the council for
cultural cooperation of the CIS, it was the Ukrainian cultural minister
who proposed that I be elected chairman of the council.
Armenia was represented there by its ambassador Armen Smbatyan who
asked to take the floor. There was a deathly silence. Everyone thought
that since he was Armenia's representative, he would definitely oppose
the candidature of an Azerbaijani. However, he said that he believed
this was a correct decision because everyone had known Polad Bulbuloglu
for a long time, and Armenia believes that he alone should head this
council. The effect was like an exploding bomb. Naturally, such things
are never forgotten and so we got to know each other.
I would like to point out that many people become jealous when someone
associates with the Armenian side. But you have to understand that
talking with the Armenian side does not mean you have to take their
position. First and foremost, it is an opportunity to put over
Azerbaijan's position and set out one's vision. Apart from that
dialogue is also an opportunity to home in on mutual points of contact
and to seek compromises.
[Correspondent] When you were a minister you were against contacts with
Armenia. But when you were appointed ambassador your position changed
and now you are talking about the need for a dialogue. What was the
reason for your change of views?
Change of mind
[Bulbuloglu] It's true, I was once an avid supporter of avoiding
contact. When I was minister I followed this line strictly. What is
more, I tried as often as I could to block Armenia's participation in
any international events that might be taking place in our country.
There was one occasion when I cancelled an international conference due
to be held in Azerbaijan under UNESCO. And despite the fact that our
Foreign Ministry insisted on holding this event, I stood by my
positions of complete isolation.
But one must have the courage to admit that such a policy does not
bring results. Such a policy only alienates the two sides. And one
should emphasize one important aspect. Our generation that is people in
the 50-70 age group in Armenia and Azerbaijan - is going, so when our
generation goes and a new one comes, it is not going to see eye to eye.
But war is the very last and the worst solution.
On this trip each side had one TV cameraman and I noticed that within
half an hour of working together they were helping each other. In other
words, there is no substitute for human contact. You don't have to be
like an ostrich and hide your head in the sand and think that the rest
of you cannot be seen. Azerbaijan and Armenia, when they joined the
Council of Europe, gave a written undertaking to resolve the Nagornyy
Karabakh problem by peaceful means. Azerbaijan is a country which, as a
rule, carries out its international obligations.
Apart from this, we must take into account the fact that Baku-Ceyhan
[oil pipeline] is now in operation and will bring considerable profit
to the country. Many investors have put a lot of money into this
project. What do you think, who is going to allow a war when the
pipeline starts bringing in real revenue? Neither the US, nor Russia,
nor France is going to let us fight. In order to start a war, one must
break off ties with all the major countries of the world. Can
Azerbaijan allow itself to do such a thing? Recently in Moscow at a
very high level talks between Azerbaijan and Armenia were set up as an
example to other world conflicts.
We must realize that after a settlement to the conflict we will have to
accept the Armenians living in Nagornyy Karabakh as citizens of
Azerbaijan, and we must be prepared to have a dialogue with them. They,
too, must be prepared for this. We should not forget that they also
have a media which conducts propaganda against Azerbaijan. Nor must we
forget that in Armenia for years they have conducted propaganda against
the Turks and the Azeris. There is no denying that we have a similar
propaganda and the younger generation is being brought up, if we are to
call a spade a spade, deeply hating everything Armenian. This is not
the way to carry on.
Communities get along in Russia
As ambassador to Russia, I can say that in this country particularly
almost all the Armenian and Azerbaijani communities live in friendship
and it cannot be ignored that in many cases they do business together.
The communities help one another. Particularly now, when migration
questions have arisen, they help one another to resolve these problems.
Does it mean that Armenians and Azeris can live together in Russia, but
not here?
On a world scale we live in a tiny plot of land. Tomorrow, we three
Caucasian countries will have to answer no less important global
challenges as shortage of water, problems of ecology, and other issues.
We must be able to live together. For example, our civil aircraft fly
through Armenian air space, and if necessary, they are also given
permission to fly through our air space. Nobody shoots them down. We
are neighbours. There is conflict in every family. It happens that
families argue because of where they come from, but this should not go
on forever!
I have come to this opinion over a period of time, and so you must not
think that my views have suddenly changed. Anyway, the post of a
minister is one thing, and the post of an ambassador is quite another.
I have occasion to read a lot, a huge amount of information, including
special information, which is not available to the ordinary citizen.
Ambassadors are in the thick of things. Perhaps all this information is
the reason why I have started to think differently. As they say, there
is a time to throw stones and a time to collect stones.
We are gradually beginning to realize that we must talk and come to an
understanding. Even if we reach a state of war, the positive process we
have acquired from the talks will come to our aid. The president of
Azerbaijan, when he received us, said that he, as head of state, will
do everything he can, including using his contacts with intellectuals
and public organizations who will contribute to this understanding.
[Correspondent] Polad muallim, what do you remember of that day when
for the first time you crossed the contact line and entered Karabakh?
Visit to Karabakh
[Bulbuloglu] It is natural that I will remember that day for the rest
of my life. Because I have been in the house of my father which is now
a ruin. Believe me, it was difficult to hold back the tears when I saw
the ruined house of my father and grandfather. All that is left is a
mulberry tree on which my father used to sing when he was a child. We
saw his bust, with half his face missing. We once built a small house
to keep our valuables in and a museum for the servants. Fortunately,
both these houses are still there even though many houses in Susa were
destroyed. There was a woman there who when she saw me said
straightaway: "I know you, you are Bulbul's son. How nice that you have
come back to your father's house." How can I forget this when this
brought tears to the eyes of an Armenian woman. This shows that
people's feelings are the same everywhere.
I used to say to the Armenians that [eminent musician and public
figure] Uzeyir Hacibayov and [singer] Bulbul, apart from the fact that
they were Azeris, came from Karabakh and are the pride of these places.
If you want to live in this land, you must be proud of them. There are
Armenian military commanders who fought during the Great Patriotic War
and whom we Azeris - can be proud of because they are from Karabakh.
When we arrived in Susa they offered to take us through the town by
car, but we decided to walk. I took a handful of soil, went to the
cemetery and scattered it on the graves of Bulbul, Uzeyir Hacibayov and
[eminent actor] Suleyman Alasgarov.
Mentally, this was very stressful for us. When we crossed the contact
line, the representatives of the OSCE insisted that we put on
bullet-proof vests because there were snipers about. But we refused,
saying it would be a great honour to die in this land. I looked at the
Azeri officers and could see pride in their eyes. But what can I say
about what I saw on the road to Karabakh? Armenian signs, shattered
roads, old vehicles. This is a very long way from the development we
are used to in Azerbaijan.
Meeting with Karabakh president
[Correspondent] There has been a lot of gossip about your meeting with
[Nagornyy Karabakh president Arkadi] Ghukasyan. Could you tell us your
side of the meeting and about your position?
[Bulbuloglu] Journalists often ask this question. We have never
recognized and never will recognize this self-proclaimed republic. The
whole world also will never recognize them. But there is some kind of
public formation there. There are people living there who go to work,
go to the shops, buy food, and get paid. They do have some kind of
life. We cannot say they do not exist.
They have a leader. Call him what you will, but he is there. I must say
that Mr Ghukasyan speaks Russian very well and grammatically. He can
express his point of view. He greeted us warmly and said that the
arrival of the Azerbaijani intellectuals was a big day. He said: "We
welcome this step and consider it historic. We would like you to talk
with us, so that you understand our aspirations and our point of view".
I must admit I was struck by one thing that Ghukasyan said: "How can
you want to live with us if you cannot talk with us?" This is a logical
question, and it must be answered. Imagine inviting someone into your
home but at the same time not wanting to talk with them.
[Correspondent] What do you remember of the last time you were in Susa?
[Bulbuloglu] I have fond memories of the first folk festival Xari
Bulbul which was organized in Susa in 1989. There were about 120 people
there from seven or eight countries. We arranged a concert on Cidir
duzu [Hippodrome], where children used to sing "Karabakh sikastasi".
And even under the [Arkadiy] Volskiy committee [on Karabakh] I as a
member of the delegation went there to explain our relations with it.
This was a very unhappy visit, an unpleasant conversation, both with
Volskiy himself and with his people who were right when they said that
they could not understand what sort of government had been established.
[Correspondent] I would like to understand one thing. You saw what Susa
was like. Do you think that the Armenians realize that the occupation
has not been justified?
Occupation cannot be justified
[Bulbuloglu] I cannot speak for the Armenians, but, of course, the
occupation cannot be justified. There is hardly any life to speak of in
the town, it has been destroyed. Believe me, these five members of the
Armenian intelligentsia, when they saw our capital, probably went away
with the same thoughts you are now expressing.
[Correspondent] How do you feel now? After all, won't a lot of people
criticize what you have done?
[Bulbuloglu] I went to bed yesterday with a sense of having fulfilled
my duty. Over the past few years I have wanted to do something like
this. Some inner strength has always said to me that I must do
something. It is impossible to explain. You go to bed and you wake up
with the same thought. You talk to someone and suddenly this thought
forces its way through. We understood perfectly that there would be
people who will start to earn publicity from our mission and vilify us.
But wise and level-headed people understand that we have made an
important first step. We have broken through the 15-year old screen of
resentment. During my work as ambassador I have come to the conviction
that the path of talks is the truest path. I believe that we did the
right thing in going to Karabakh. I believe it my duty to express
immense gratitude to my fellow companions Farhad Badalbayli, Kamal
Abdulla, Azarpasa Nematov and Ilham Fataliyev who, without a shadow of
a doubt, agreed straightaway to my proposal of an unusual trip to our
beloved Karabakh.