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BAGHDASARIAN COMMENTS ON WIRETAP SCANDAL, ELECTIONS
Radio Liberty, Czech Republic
May 7 2007
Orinats Yerkir Party leader Artur Baghdasarian gave an extensive
interview to RFE/RL. Below are excerpts of the interview taken from
the ex-parliament speaker by RFE/RL reporters Anna Israelian, Ruzanna
Khachatrian, and senior editor Armen Dulian.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): Mr. Baghdasarian, the question that has
been most frequently voiced by both the opposition and government
in connection with the wiretapped conversation between you and the
British vice-ambassador is as follows: 'Why doesn't Artur Baghdasarian
turn to law-enforcement bodies with a demand that a criminal case
be instituted over the violation of his rights and over the secret
recording that constituted an invasion of his privacy?' Why don't you?
Artur Baghdasarian: We have stated on numerous occasions that
the judiciary in Armenia needs serious reforms, and, yes, in many
cases it is impossible to solve any problem without money, bribe or
connections. It is obvious. Almost everyone speaks about this.
Regarding this story - what secrecy are they talking about? I have
meetings with hundreds of diplomats, representatives of international
organizations, just like any other politician, and to make a show days
before the [parliamentary] elections... one of the reasons for that is,
of course, Orinats Yerkir's growing rating. As for the eavesdropping,
it is a very condemnable and bad display, let alone the fact that the
conversation was distorted and given various interpretations. Should
they also eavesdrop and record private talks in families, between
friends? We strongly condemn this phenomenon. As for different
newspaper publications, I will tell anyone the same thing that I have
said in public. Yes, Armenia needs free and fair elections that will
meet international standards.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): You always stress that Orinats Yerkir
wants to build a rule-of-law state. Should people in the country you
dream of be so tolerant to people secretly recording conversations,
to phenomena of calling each other traitors in public? I repeat my
question - why don't you file a lawsuit?
A.B.: I have already answered your question. This is because justice
in Armenia is not on a proper level and there have been cases when we
did apply [to courts] and it had a diametrically opposite effect. We
have given a clear answer in public and I suggest we should not dwell
on this subject because I have spoken about it publicly and made
it clear, every citizen of Armenia heard my answer and I suggest we
speak about problems during the ongoing election campaign. I repeat:
we consider the application of unfair methods unacceptable.
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): You speak about a corrupt judiciary. Do
you also mean the Constitutional Court? You can apply to the
Constitutional Court through the Ombudsman, can't you?
A.B.: Everyday RFE/RL reports about wholesale human rights
violations. I urge RFE/RL to apply to the Ombudsman, to apply to the
Constitutional Court.
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): You say everyone is a target for secret
recordings, but if my conversation is secretly recorded it is one
thing, and if yours it is a different matter. The concern here is that
as a politician relying on a foreign force you will be dependent on
it in carrying out your policies if you are elected to parliament or
elected president.
A.B.: Orinats Yerkir is the child of the Armenian nation. We are
a political party that has a decade-long track record and 110,000
members. That is, we rely on our people. I consider it absurd to
rely on foreign forces. All should know that I have good friends
outside Armenia. Thank God, all my speeches on the international
arena have been shown on television and published in the press. At
all international instances I have defended the Armenian Cause,
the Karabakh problem, all those problems facing our state. We should
put our ties to the service of our nation. The friendly and political
ties we now have with different international political organizations,
structures must serve the Republic of Armenia and this is the principle
we have adhered to.
You know well that it was an ordinary working conversation during
which concerns were voiced. OSCE observers came for a meeting at our
office. All are interested, all give questions about the pre-election
situation and ask to present it from the viewpoint of an opposition
party. We have said during that conversation and a month before that.
We said that we were not provided with halls. Now we say that the
Kentron TV has not covered our campaign a single time during a month,
ALM TV has never covered it in its news even once. Shouldn't we say
that? Today, after 7.00 pm the television is flooded with interviews
featuring pro-government representatives. And we speak of equality?
We have submitted a written application to the Central Election
Commission. Why don't you provide us with airtime? I had only three
or four television appearances during a year. People have a very good
saying: we switch on the iron press and the same people are speaking
there. Comrades, we speak about freedom and equality and we tell the
truth, and we must give a clear answer to that at the time of asking.
It is the right of the television stations to decide, but we cannot
disregard this.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): In a televised speech last Sunday you said
your personal security was at risk. What reasons do you have to make
such claims?
A.B.: I made two statements on that day. If the people trust us, then I
will participate in the upcoming presidential elections and the second
about what we see today. Look, what a bitter path Orinats Yerkir has
traveled. I don't want any of my compatriots to experience what we
have. I don't want to talk about specific examples now. Let's organize
a fair competition. The general estimation of the current campaign in
Armenia with its good and bad aspects is that an opportunity is given
to all political forces to present their message. This is positive. But
we cannot keep silent on many negative things. We cannot but say that
we are in unequal conditions today.
Why don't they invite us? Why don't they give us an opportunity to
speak? Why political advertisement is priced at $300-$400 a minute,
which is ten times as high as the current pensions?
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): In that case, how would you comment on
Shavarsh Kocharian's recently published evaluation of you according
to which you are not a frank politician?
A.B.: I invite you to meetings with people. See how people today
evaluate every politician. Today, many speak only against Artur
Baghdasarian, only against Orinats Yerkir. Mind your own business,
organize your own campaign. The impression is that there is nothing
else in this country.
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): But you say your rating is growing?
A.B.: I don't know whether it is growing due to that or not. But have
you seen me gathering political points by smearing anyone, say Shavarsh
Kocharian or Manuk Gasparian? Let them pursue their campaigns the way
they want. And in this sense, I will say, Dashnaktsutyun and several
other parties are very balanced, when they speak, they speak about
their programs. You have an opportunity to speak about your programs
today, so take it and present your message to the voter. The country
is in a serious socio-economic situation.
There are lots of unsolved problems, there are illegalities and
injustices. Poverty has attacked people. Offer ways of solution.
Orinats Yerkir is unfolding a civilized campaign. We present our
pre-election program, our vision of the future, we point at what is
wrong, how we think we can move forward. Armenia is a small country
despite the ambitions of some. Everyone knows each other very well.
After all, no one can blame me for not meaning well for my homeland.
I am struggling for my homeland, I am struggling for every compatriot
of mine no matter what political views he has and I want all to live
well in Armenia.
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): Have you analyzed why Orinats Yerkir had to
go through all those troubles and tribulations? Why the relations
between the president and Artur Baghdasarian have deteriorated so
dramatically, whereas you defended the president? In the end, the
president called you a person showing a traitor's behavior.
A.B.: I have already publicly responded to all these questions. I
think it is all those who have made lives miserable for many people,
who instead of being engaged in fair political competition are
preparing tailor-made articles, trying to discredit people who are
real betrayers of the country. Once we publicly supported [President
Robert Kocharian]... I spoke about it in my reply statement. And I
don't want to tell more. Let time and God be the judge of any person's
political and public activities...
When Orinats Yerkir was in government, it said that power wasn't an
opportunity to enjoy the benefits for it, being in government was
a duty and responsibility for us. Not a single parliament session
passed without us raising various problems and concerns of our
country and people, and, moreover, we were consistent in solving
these problems. But we might have kept silent as well. We struggled
against injustices, illegalities...
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): Several days ago our guest was Vahan Hovannisian
of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation [Dashnaktsutyun]. He was
saying the same things, that they were opposition in government. It
turns out that you were opposition, Dashnaktsutyun was opposition,
and who was the government?
A.B.: It seems to me that it is clear to all that Dashnaktsutyun is
a political party in government today. Everyone knows each other
very well. Orinats Yerkir is opposition today. Orinats Yerkir's
activities are open to public. And yes, we are struggling for the
rule of law and justice. Because all - doctors, teachers, young
people, pensioners, scientists, war veterans, disabled people,
all members of the public equally need law in Armenia today. As
for Dashnaktsutyun, it is represented in the government today, as
it has four ministers, tens of deputy ministers, vice-governors,
and so on. And if Dashnaktsutyun speaks about shortcomings today,
it is very good, it should only be welcomed. If there are problems
in the country, one must speak about them.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): Given that your team are not distinguished
by their resolution, to what lengths will you go to protect the votes
in the polls in a week's time?
A.B.: Orinats Yerkir is a combat-ready army of many thousands of
people adhering to their principles. Orinats Yerkir has 110,000
members. Today, Orinats Yerkir has appointed devoted representatives
to all election commissions, we have proxies everywhere, and we will
keep our votes. We will fight for them to the end. I want to take
this opportunity to say: let's organize free and fair elections. All
those who will attempt to get our votes by force, that is to encroach
on the votes of Republic of Armenia citizens should know that now
they will face criminal responsibility for that and will face three
to five years in prison. All our members in election commissions are
well trained and have vast knowledge of laws. They will go to polling
precincts to safeguard law and justice.
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): In previous elections you complained of
elections being mishandled. Even your representative to the Central
Election Commission did not want to sign [the protocol]. And what
happened after that? You complained, then entered the coalition and
became government. That is to say, cooperated with those you had
accused of mishandling the elections. Won't the same happen this
time around?
A.B.: In the previous elections we stated that our votes had been
falsified, but we were the second largest party according to the votes
we polled. It is people who decide who the government should be. Had
Orinats Yerkir been sixth by its votes, we wouldn't have been able to
be a part of government. And now the goal of any political structure
is to be in government. Our goal is also to be in government in order
to be able to solve people's problems, because we must be resolute
to change this unjust situation. We will go and keep our votes,
as for the rest, we'll see what vote we get from people.
Different sociologists foist different figures on members of the
public, and we also arrange opinion surveys, which show that Orinats
Yerkir has the highest political rating in Armenia today. We have
worked in every corner of Armenia to get these results. We have our
structures, our representatives and we will keep our votes at election
commissions. If there are large-scale riggings, there will be great
shocks in Armenia. I say it clearly for everyone to hear.
All should be interested to prevent such shocks in Armenia by
organizing free and transparent elections. Today, the Republican
Party of Armenia, the Prosperous Armenia Party, the United Labor
Party, Dashnaktsutyun have vast administrative, financial, airtime
privileges, they use all possibilities as parties of the government to
solve their problems. We agree to that, all we say is - just organize
fair elections.
We will record on video the work of election commissions anywhere we
will have an opportunity to. We will record on video the process of
ballot count. I urge all parties - let's unite - and the law gives
that opportunity - let's record on video the process to ensure that
we have clean elections. I promise to be the first to congratulate
the winner if he wins in an honest and fair struggle.
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): Will Orinats Yerkir take [its supporters]
to the streets if the elections are rigged?
A.B.: If there are falsifications, I will be in the forefront
of the fight. If the electoral laws are violated in Armenia, if
wholesale riggings are committed, we will struggle with resolution
and principle. But I am among those who do not want my country to find
itself in a disgraceful situation once again. All those who think that
they will go unpunished for the electoral fraud they commit are deeply
mistaken. We will struggle to the end using all legal means for that.
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress
Radio Liberty, Czech Republic
May 7 2007
Orinats Yerkir Party leader Artur Baghdasarian gave an extensive
interview to RFE/RL. Below are excerpts of the interview taken from
the ex-parliament speaker by RFE/RL reporters Anna Israelian, Ruzanna
Khachatrian, and senior editor Armen Dulian.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): Mr. Baghdasarian, the question that has
been most frequently voiced by both the opposition and government
in connection with the wiretapped conversation between you and the
British vice-ambassador is as follows: 'Why doesn't Artur Baghdasarian
turn to law-enforcement bodies with a demand that a criminal case
be instituted over the violation of his rights and over the secret
recording that constituted an invasion of his privacy?' Why don't you?
Artur Baghdasarian: We have stated on numerous occasions that
the judiciary in Armenia needs serious reforms, and, yes, in many
cases it is impossible to solve any problem without money, bribe or
connections. It is obvious. Almost everyone speaks about this.
Regarding this story - what secrecy are they talking about? I have
meetings with hundreds of diplomats, representatives of international
organizations, just like any other politician, and to make a show days
before the [parliamentary] elections... one of the reasons for that is,
of course, Orinats Yerkir's growing rating. As for the eavesdropping,
it is a very condemnable and bad display, let alone the fact that the
conversation was distorted and given various interpretations. Should
they also eavesdrop and record private talks in families, between
friends? We strongly condemn this phenomenon. As for different
newspaper publications, I will tell anyone the same thing that I have
said in public. Yes, Armenia needs free and fair elections that will
meet international standards.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): You always stress that Orinats Yerkir
wants to build a rule-of-law state. Should people in the country you
dream of be so tolerant to people secretly recording conversations,
to phenomena of calling each other traitors in public? I repeat my
question - why don't you file a lawsuit?
A.B.: I have already answered your question. This is because justice
in Armenia is not on a proper level and there have been cases when we
did apply [to courts] and it had a diametrically opposite effect. We
have given a clear answer in public and I suggest we should not dwell
on this subject because I have spoken about it publicly and made
it clear, every citizen of Armenia heard my answer and I suggest we
speak about problems during the ongoing election campaign. I repeat:
we consider the application of unfair methods unacceptable.
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): You speak about a corrupt judiciary. Do
you also mean the Constitutional Court? You can apply to the
Constitutional Court through the Ombudsman, can't you?
A.B.: Everyday RFE/RL reports about wholesale human rights
violations. I urge RFE/RL to apply to the Ombudsman, to apply to the
Constitutional Court.
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): You say everyone is a target for secret
recordings, but if my conversation is secretly recorded it is one
thing, and if yours it is a different matter. The concern here is that
as a politician relying on a foreign force you will be dependent on
it in carrying out your policies if you are elected to parliament or
elected president.
A.B.: Orinats Yerkir is the child of the Armenian nation. We are
a political party that has a decade-long track record and 110,000
members. That is, we rely on our people. I consider it absurd to
rely on foreign forces. All should know that I have good friends
outside Armenia. Thank God, all my speeches on the international
arena have been shown on television and published in the press. At
all international instances I have defended the Armenian Cause,
the Karabakh problem, all those problems facing our state. We should
put our ties to the service of our nation. The friendly and political
ties we now have with different international political organizations,
structures must serve the Republic of Armenia and this is the principle
we have adhered to.
You know well that it was an ordinary working conversation during
which concerns were voiced. OSCE observers came for a meeting at our
office. All are interested, all give questions about the pre-election
situation and ask to present it from the viewpoint of an opposition
party. We have said during that conversation and a month before that.
We said that we were not provided with halls. Now we say that the
Kentron TV has not covered our campaign a single time during a month,
ALM TV has never covered it in its news even once. Shouldn't we say
that? Today, after 7.00 pm the television is flooded with interviews
featuring pro-government representatives. And we speak of equality?
We have submitted a written application to the Central Election
Commission. Why don't you provide us with airtime? I had only three
or four television appearances during a year. People have a very good
saying: we switch on the iron press and the same people are speaking
there. Comrades, we speak about freedom and equality and we tell the
truth, and we must give a clear answer to that at the time of asking.
It is the right of the television stations to decide, but we cannot
disregard this.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): In a televised speech last Sunday you said
your personal security was at risk. What reasons do you have to make
such claims?
A.B.: I made two statements on that day. If the people trust us, then I
will participate in the upcoming presidential elections and the second
about what we see today. Look, what a bitter path Orinats Yerkir has
traveled. I don't want any of my compatriots to experience what we
have. I don't want to talk about specific examples now. Let's organize
a fair competition. The general estimation of the current campaign in
Armenia with its good and bad aspects is that an opportunity is given
to all political forces to present their message. This is positive. But
we cannot keep silent on many negative things. We cannot but say that
we are in unequal conditions today.
Why don't they invite us? Why don't they give us an opportunity to
speak? Why political advertisement is priced at $300-$400 a minute,
which is ten times as high as the current pensions?
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): In that case, how would you comment on
Shavarsh Kocharian's recently published evaluation of you according
to which you are not a frank politician?
A.B.: I invite you to meetings with people. See how people today
evaluate every politician. Today, many speak only against Artur
Baghdasarian, only against Orinats Yerkir. Mind your own business,
organize your own campaign. The impression is that there is nothing
else in this country.
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): But you say your rating is growing?
A.B.: I don't know whether it is growing due to that or not. But have
you seen me gathering political points by smearing anyone, say Shavarsh
Kocharian or Manuk Gasparian? Let them pursue their campaigns the way
they want. And in this sense, I will say, Dashnaktsutyun and several
other parties are very balanced, when they speak, they speak about
their programs. You have an opportunity to speak about your programs
today, so take it and present your message to the voter. The country
is in a serious socio-economic situation.
There are lots of unsolved problems, there are illegalities and
injustices. Poverty has attacked people. Offer ways of solution.
Orinats Yerkir is unfolding a civilized campaign. We present our
pre-election program, our vision of the future, we point at what is
wrong, how we think we can move forward. Armenia is a small country
despite the ambitions of some. Everyone knows each other very well.
After all, no one can blame me for not meaning well for my homeland.
I am struggling for my homeland, I am struggling for every compatriot
of mine no matter what political views he has and I want all to live
well in Armenia.
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): Have you analyzed why Orinats Yerkir had to
go through all those troubles and tribulations? Why the relations
between the president and Artur Baghdasarian have deteriorated so
dramatically, whereas you defended the president? In the end, the
president called you a person showing a traitor's behavior.
A.B.: I have already publicly responded to all these questions. I
think it is all those who have made lives miserable for many people,
who instead of being engaged in fair political competition are
preparing tailor-made articles, trying to discredit people who are
real betrayers of the country. Once we publicly supported [President
Robert Kocharian]... I spoke about it in my reply statement. And I
don't want to tell more. Let time and God be the judge of any person's
political and public activities...
When Orinats Yerkir was in government, it said that power wasn't an
opportunity to enjoy the benefits for it, being in government was
a duty and responsibility for us. Not a single parliament session
passed without us raising various problems and concerns of our
country and people, and, moreover, we were consistent in solving
these problems. But we might have kept silent as well. We struggled
against injustices, illegalities...
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): Several days ago our guest was Vahan Hovannisian
of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation [Dashnaktsutyun]. He was
saying the same things, that they were opposition in government. It
turns out that you were opposition, Dashnaktsutyun was opposition,
and who was the government?
A.B.: It seems to me that it is clear to all that Dashnaktsutyun is
a political party in government today. Everyone knows each other
very well. Orinats Yerkir is opposition today. Orinats Yerkir's
activities are open to public. And yes, we are struggling for the
rule of law and justice. Because all - doctors, teachers, young
people, pensioners, scientists, war veterans, disabled people,
all members of the public equally need law in Armenia today. As
for Dashnaktsutyun, it is represented in the government today, as
it has four ministers, tens of deputy ministers, vice-governors,
and so on. And if Dashnaktsutyun speaks about shortcomings today,
it is very good, it should only be welcomed. If there are problems
in the country, one must speak about them.
RFE/RL (Anna Israelian): Given that your team are not distinguished
by their resolution, to what lengths will you go to protect the votes
in the polls in a week's time?
A.B.: Orinats Yerkir is a combat-ready army of many thousands of
people adhering to their principles. Orinats Yerkir has 110,000
members. Today, Orinats Yerkir has appointed devoted representatives
to all election commissions, we have proxies everywhere, and we will
keep our votes. We will fight for them to the end. I want to take
this opportunity to say: let's organize free and fair elections. All
those who will attempt to get our votes by force, that is to encroach
on the votes of Republic of Armenia citizens should know that now
they will face criminal responsibility for that and will face three
to five years in prison. All our members in election commissions are
well trained and have vast knowledge of laws. They will go to polling
precincts to safeguard law and justice.
RFE/RL (Armen Dulian): In previous elections you complained of
elections being mishandled. Even your representative to the Central
Election Commission did not want to sign [the protocol]. And what
happened after that? You complained, then entered the coalition and
became government. That is to say, cooperated with those you had
accused of mishandling the elections. Won't the same happen this
time around?
A.B.: In the previous elections we stated that our votes had been
falsified, but we were the second largest party according to the votes
we polled. It is people who decide who the government should be. Had
Orinats Yerkir been sixth by its votes, we wouldn't have been able to
be a part of government. And now the goal of any political structure
is to be in government. Our goal is also to be in government in order
to be able to solve people's problems, because we must be resolute
to change this unjust situation. We will go and keep our votes,
as for the rest, we'll see what vote we get from people.
Different sociologists foist different figures on members of the
public, and we also arrange opinion surveys, which show that Orinats
Yerkir has the highest political rating in Armenia today. We have
worked in every corner of Armenia to get these results. We have our
structures, our representatives and we will keep our votes at election
commissions. If there are large-scale riggings, there will be great
shocks in Armenia. I say it clearly for everyone to hear.
All should be interested to prevent such shocks in Armenia by
organizing free and transparent elections. Today, the Republican
Party of Armenia, the Prosperous Armenia Party, the United Labor
Party, Dashnaktsutyun have vast administrative, financial, airtime
privileges, they use all possibilities as parties of the government to
solve their problems. We agree to that, all we say is - just organize
fair elections.
We will record on video the work of election commissions anywhere we
will have an opportunity to. We will record on video the process of
ballot count. I urge all parties - let's unite - and the law gives
that opportunity - let's record on video the process to ensure that
we have clean elections. I promise to be the first to congratulate
the winner if he wins in an honest and fair struggle.
RFE/RL (Ruzanna Khachatrian): Will Orinats Yerkir take [its supporters]
to the streets if the elections are rigged?
A.B.: If there are falsifications, I will be in the forefront
of the fight. If the electoral laws are violated in Armenia, if
wholesale riggings are committed, we will struggle with resolution
and principle. But I am among those who do not want my country to find
itself in a disgraceful situation once again. All those who think that
they will go unpunished for the electoral fraud they commit are deeply
mistaken. We will struggle to the end using all legal means for that.
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress