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ARMENIAN RESOLUTION: DANIEL FRIED, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR EUROPEAN AND EURASIAN AFFAIRS INTERVIEW WITH TRT TURKISH TV
US Department of State, DC
http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/93389.htm
Was hington, DC
Oct 10 2007
TRT Television: Ambassador, thank you so much for accepting the
interview.
The House Foreign Relations Committee will mark up Resolution 106
tomorrow. I'm not going to ask you what may or may not happen at the
House. After all, we all have to respect the decisions of our elected
officials. But I'm going to ask you this. Can you please explain to us
the difference in the approach of the administration and the members
of the Congress who are supportive of this bill, the Armenian Genocide
Delegation, or is there any difference between the administration
and the members of the Congress who are supporting Resolution 106?
Assistant Secretary Fried: There is a huge difference. We oppose
the bill. We think it is a bad idea that will do nothing to
improve Turkish-Armenian relations, it will do nothing to advance
reconciliation between Turks and Armenians over the terrible events
of 1915, and it will not do anything to advance American interests.
We think the bill is a bad idea. We have said so. President Bush,
Secretary Rice, Under Secretary Burns, Ambassador Wilson and I have
all spoken to members of Congress about this and all former living
U.S. Secretaries of State have come out against this bill in writing
including Secretary Albright, Secretary Christopher. Former Defense
Secretaries have come out, including Bill Cohen and Bill Perry who
worked for President Clinton.
So there is bipartisan opposition to this bill among some very senior
people. So we oppose it and we will continue to.
TRT Television: And Armenian Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian say the
ones who oppose the bill have been bought into Turkish manipulation.
Have you?
Assistant Secretary Fried: No. We are perfectly capable of making
our own decisions.
I understand there are people on the other side of this question
and it is also true that there were terrible things that happened
in 1915 and after. Those are historical facts. And the United States
government doesn't deny them and I don't believe Turkey does either.
But the question is not whether terrible things happened. We know they
did. The question is does this bill help advance historical truth,
understanding, or better relations between Turkey and Armenia, and
it does not.
TRT Television: I know usually officials do not appreciate to be
asked hypothetical questions, but I'll try.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Go ahead and try.
TRT Television: If Turkey were to hypothetically speaking accept the
allegations, would it have prevented the Armenian troops massacres in
Hajala 15 years ago, or would it make a difference in Darfur tomorrow?
Assistant Secretary Fried: The way you've put the question allows
me to say something which is it's important for Turkey and Armenia
to talk about the terrible events that occurred. Every nation
has dark spots including the United States. What can we say about
slavery or the treatment of American Indians, or the treatment of
Japanese-Americans in World War II. These were bad things. Terrible
things. We committed them, and as an honest nation we've come to terms
with our history. That's what honest nations have to do. But it wasn't
legislation passed by a foreign parliament which got America to do the
right thing. That's why we think that reconciliation should come from
within the society. We support this process of reconciliation. There
are Turks and Armenians who have worked on it, and that's the way to
go. We don't think the legislation will help.
TRT Television: I think this is the longest answer to any hypothetical
question so I'll try one more.
If the House passes the bill, what do you think the Turkish
government's response will be?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I have --
TRT Television: -- U.S.-Turkey relations.
Assistant Secretary Fried: I can't possibly answer that. We hope
that we defeat the bill. I know there will be people in Turkey who
will be angry but I think the Turks will recognize that they have
long term interests. I hope they will not do anything to limit their
own options for the future. But look, that's a hypothetical. Today,
tomorrow, we're concentrating on defeating the bill.
TRT Television: Are you going to take any security measures?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I don't want to comment on that.
TRT Television: -- the --
Assistant Secretary Fried: I don't want to comment on any of this
except to say right now, working with Ambassador Wilson, we're trying
to defeat this bill and explain why it's not a good thing.
TRT Television: This comes at a time when the Kurdistan Workers Party,
PKK terrorists, increased their attacks in Turkey, just within the
last two weeks Turks have lost 27 of their citizens. There is a
general public perception about the U.S. policies in the region,
that it has a sinister plan on different ethnic groups...
Assistant Secretary Fried: Wrong.
TRT Television: which at the end targets Turkish sovereignty.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Wrong.
TRT Television: And when they look at -- And they are deeply
disappointed of the U.S. inaction against the PKK. Also now this bill
coming at the Congress. Also in between the firm warnings of the U.S.
not to carry out a cross-border operation. When they all add up these
they say, the Turkish perception goes along in essence that this is
the evidence.
Assistant Secretary Fried: There is no --
TRT Television: What is your response, Ambassador?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We were outraged and disgusted by the PKK
attacks, and I first want to express that but also condolences to
the families. We have all had our losses to terrorists. Americans,
Turks, people of many other nations. So the first thing I have
to do is condemn terrorism in general and the PKK terrorists in
particular. We don't help them, we fight them. Some Turks even remember
our cooperation. Mr. Ocalan is in a Turkish prison and it was a Turkish
operation that got him, but we're glad he's in custody right now.
We want to do more with Turkey but there is no truth whatsoever to
some of these fantastic allegations. We want to see a strong Turkey
with a strong economy, modernizing, joining the European Union, at
peace with itself and its neighbors, all of them. We see Turkey as
a strategic partner in the world. There's no question about that.
There's no question that we want to see an Iraq that is functional,
more at peace than it is today, and united. We have spoken strongly to
the Iraqi government and the Kurdish regional authorities and urged
that they do more to stop the PKK from attacking their neighbor and
we will continue to push them. We will continue to work with Turkey
until Turkey does not feel threatened by the PKK.
TRT Television: Since the toppling of Saddam Hussein PKK attacks
are hurting Turkey. The Turkish public opinion has reached a point
where words really do not solve our problems. We want action. And
today the Turkish Foreign Ministry has a lengthy meeting on how to
fight this terrorism. After a three and a half hour meeting the Prime
Minister's office announced that they are going to start preparing
for a cross-border operation. What's your take on it, Ambassador?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We want to work with Turkey to stop PKK
attacks on Turkey. There are a number of ways we can do this. Turkey
and Iraq recently concluded a Memorandum of Understanding on
counter-terrorist cooperation. I think that's the ticket. That's the
way to go. Work with Iraq and work together and work with us against
the PKK.
TRT Television: It does not include the hot pursuit issue which is
something that the Turkish side wanted, and the Turkish public opinion
is saying that still the U.S. is backing the Iraqi Kurds and this is
not a good fate of NATO allies.
Assistant Secretary Fried: We do not think that the Iraqi government
or the Kurdistan regional government has done all it could and we
think they should do more. We've said so. This isn't a secret. We
hope Turkey and we can work with the President, Prime Minister of
Iraq and the Kurdish regional government, Mrs. Talibani, Barzani,
to make more progress. But they're not behind these PKK attacks. They
are allies and friends and we want to build on that partnership.
Turkish frustration is understandable. It just is. It's understandable
that people would react in anger to terrorist attacks.
We Americans do. We need to be smart in the way we go after the
terrorists.
TRT Television: Ambassador, in a few sentences, to make it clear
in the Turkish public perception, why should Turkey not carry any
cross-border operation? How is it going to hurt Turkish interests,
or is it going to hurt U.S. interests?
Assistant Secretary Fried: The question is not what makes you feel
good today but what works. Turkey has conducted cross-border attacks
in the past and the question is, does it work? What's the best way to
deal with the PKK? Not for tomorrow's headlines in the newspapers,
but to deal with it in a real way. It seems to me that there are a
combination of things that can be done. We want to work with Turkey.
It involves all of our assets working together and we intend to do
our best.
TRT Television: What's your understanding of the Turkish government's
performance?
Assistant Secretary Fried: In general or PKK?
TRT Television: On dealing with the PKK issue.
Assistant Secretary Fried: It's a very frustrating one. The last thing
I will do is be critical. I'm not at all. Turkey faces a dangerous,
difficult enemy and this is not easy. We want to work with Turkey. It's
in a tough place. And Turkish frustration is understandable. We have
to be smart and we have to do more.
TRT Television: If I may close this interview with a question not
related to you, within your capacity as an officer, but just as
an American.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Sure.
TRT Television: Would you please be kind enough to convey the
approaches or the strong desire among the American public to have
the Armenian genocide allegation be accepted? When we as Turkish
citizens, not as a journalist but as an ordinary Turkish individual,
I do observe that there is no question about whether the genocide
has taken place or not. It is generally accepted in the United States.
Where in Turkey it is generally accepted that, let's look at this
history all together. We think that massacre has taken place but it's
not only the Armenians, but also many Muslims, Anatolia Muslims have
also been killed. And when you look at it, it is something that we
do not see here in the U.S.. That it's not being discussed at all.
Why do you think that this side of Turkey has not find any voice among
the American people? Who is missing the dialogue or communication
link between the two nations?
Assistant Secretary Fried: Oh, that's a hard question because it is
a fact that terrible things happened. Up to a million and a half
Armenians were killed or forced into exile. Those are facts. The
United States and the United States government do not deny anything.
It's also true that the breakup of the Ottoman Empire in its kind of
last phase was a terrible one and terrible things happened. There were
atrocities, there were massacres, there was killing, there was a war,
and the Turkish government is right when it suggests that historians
need to look at this.
I think that the way ahead is for Turkey, like all honest governments
dealing with the dark spots of its history needs to do what we did, we
Americans did dealing with the dark spots of our history. Face up to it
and recognize that admitting bad things in your past doesn't make you
a bad nation. It makes you an honest one. That's an American lesson.
TRT Television: The Library of Congress has records of Armenian
massacres between 1914 and 1920 of 2.5 million Armenian Muslim
population. When we are talking about war time evidently we are really
talking about many precious lives being lost. Not only from one side,
but from both sides. Why is it not an issue for the U.S.
State Department to also talk about the losses in Anatolia or in
Azerbaijan of the Muslims?
Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, we speak about history carefully
because we're government bureaucrats, and after all, Turkey has
made the point that governments shouldn't try to get into history
as a matter of policy. So when you ask me to get into history as a
government bureaucrat I have to be careful.
But look, your point and the point of the Turkish government is that
historians should deal with this, but deal with it honestly. There
shouldn't be any taboo about dealing with these issues. No one
should be hauled up on charges for having talked about history. Not
anywhere. Not in France -- they have a law, as you know; not in Turkey,
Article 301; not anywhere. People have to discuss this in a way that
is open and honest and serious, and that's painful.
Look, in my lifetime it was still painful to talk about putting
Japanese-Americans in internment camps. It was embarrassing. It was
terrible what we did. We fought World War II for freedom and yet
we did this to our own people because they were Japanese? It's a
terrible thing. But you have to face up to your history. Everyone
does. All sides.
So an honest historical discussion is what's needed, but honest also
means painful.
TRT Television: Thank you, Ambassador.
Assistant Secretary Fried: My pleasure.
TRT Television: It's been a great pleasure for us, thank you.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Likewise.
US Department of State, DC
http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/93389.htm
Was hington, DC
Oct 10 2007
TRT Television: Ambassador, thank you so much for accepting the
interview.
The House Foreign Relations Committee will mark up Resolution 106
tomorrow. I'm not going to ask you what may or may not happen at the
House. After all, we all have to respect the decisions of our elected
officials. But I'm going to ask you this. Can you please explain to us
the difference in the approach of the administration and the members
of the Congress who are supportive of this bill, the Armenian Genocide
Delegation, or is there any difference between the administration
and the members of the Congress who are supporting Resolution 106?
Assistant Secretary Fried: There is a huge difference. We oppose
the bill. We think it is a bad idea that will do nothing to
improve Turkish-Armenian relations, it will do nothing to advance
reconciliation between Turks and Armenians over the terrible events
of 1915, and it will not do anything to advance American interests.
We think the bill is a bad idea. We have said so. President Bush,
Secretary Rice, Under Secretary Burns, Ambassador Wilson and I have
all spoken to members of Congress about this and all former living
U.S. Secretaries of State have come out against this bill in writing
including Secretary Albright, Secretary Christopher. Former Defense
Secretaries have come out, including Bill Cohen and Bill Perry who
worked for President Clinton.
So there is bipartisan opposition to this bill among some very senior
people. So we oppose it and we will continue to.
TRT Television: And Armenian Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian say the
ones who oppose the bill have been bought into Turkish manipulation.
Have you?
Assistant Secretary Fried: No. We are perfectly capable of making
our own decisions.
I understand there are people on the other side of this question
and it is also true that there were terrible things that happened
in 1915 and after. Those are historical facts. And the United States
government doesn't deny them and I don't believe Turkey does either.
But the question is not whether terrible things happened. We know they
did. The question is does this bill help advance historical truth,
understanding, or better relations between Turkey and Armenia, and
it does not.
TRT Television: I know usually officials do not appreciate to be
asked hypothetical questions, but I'll try.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Go ahead and try.
TRT Television: If Turkey were to hypothetically speaking accept the
allegations, would it have prevented the Armenian troops massacres in
Hajala 15 years ago, or would it make a difference in Darfur tomorrow?
Assistant Secretary Fried: The way you've put the question allows
me to say something which is it's important for Turkey and Armenia
to talk about the terrible events that occurred. Every nation
has dark spots including the United States. What can we say about
slavery or the treatment of American Indians, or the treatment of
Japanese-Americans in World War II. These were bad things. Terrible
things. We committed them, and as an honest nation we've come to terms
with our history. That's what honest nations have to do. But it wasn't
legislation passed by a foreign parliament which got America to do the
right thing. That's why we think that reconciliation should come from
within the society. We support this process of reconciliation. There
are Turks and Armenians who have worked on it, and that's the way to
go. We don't think the legislation will help.
TRT Television: I think this is the longest answer to any hypothetical
question so I'll try one more.
If the House passes the bill, what do you think the Turkish
government's response will be?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I have --
TRT Television: -- U.S.-Turkey relations.
Assistant Secretary Fried: I can't possibly answer that. We hope
that we defeat the bill. I know there will be people in Turkey who
will be angry but I think the Turks will recognize that they have
long term interests. I hope they will not do anything to limit their
own options for the future. But look, that's a hypothetical. Today,
tomorrow, we're concentrating on defeating the bill.
TRT Television: Are you going to take any security measures?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I don't want to comment on that.
TRT Television: -- the --
Assistant Secretary Fried: I don't want to comment on any of this
except to say right now, working with Ambassador Wilson, we're trying
to defeat this bill and explain why it's not a good thing.
TRT Television: This comes at a time when the Kurdistan Workers Party,
PKK terrorists, increased their attacks in Turkey, just within the
last two weeks Turks have lost 27 of their citizens. There is a
general public perception about the U.S. policies in the region,
that it has a sinister plan on different ethnic groups...
Assistant Secretary Fried: Wrong.
TRT Television: which at the end targets Turkish sovereignty.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Wrong.
TRT Television: And when they look at -- And they are deeply
disappointed of the U.S. inaction against the PKK. Also now this bill
coming at the Congress. Also in between the firm warnings of the U.S.
not to carry out a cross-border operation. When they all add up these
they say, the Turkish perception goes along in essence that this is
the evidence.
Assistant Secretary Fried: There is no --
TRT Television: What is your response, Ambassador?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We were outraged and disgusted by the PKK
attacks, and I first want to express that but also condolences to
the families. We have all had our losses to terrorists. Americans,
Turks, people of many other nations. So the first thing I have
to do is condemn terrorism in general and the PKK terrorists in
particular. We don't help them, we fight them. Some Turks even remember
our cooperation. Mr. Ocalan is in a Turkish prison and it was a Turkish
operation that got him, but we're glad he's in custody right now.
We want to do more with Turkey but there is no truth whatsoever to
some of these fantastic allegations. We want to see a strong Turkey
with a strong economy, modernizing, joining the European Union, at
peace with itself and its neighbors, all of them. We see Turkey as
a strategic partner in the world. There's no question about that.
There's no question that we want to see an Iraq that is functional,
more at peace than it is today, and united. We have spoken strongly to
the Iraqi government and the Kurdish regional authorities and urged
that they do more to stop the PKK from attacking their neighbor and
we will continue to push them. We will continue to work with Turkey
until Turkey does not feel threatened by the PKK.
TRT Television: Since the toppling of Saddam Hussein PKK attacks
are hurting Turkey. The Turkish public opinion has reached a point
where words really do not solve our problems. We want action. And
today the Turkish Foreign Ministry has a lengthy meeting on how to
fight this terrorism. After a three and a half hour meeting the Prime
Minister's office announced that they are going to start preparing
for a cross-border operation. What's your take on it, Ambassador?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We want to work with Turkey to stop PKK
attacks on Turkey. There are a number of ways we can do this. Turkey
and Iraq recently concluded a Memorandum of Understanding on
counter-terrorist cooperation. I think that's the ticket. That's the
way to go. Work with Iraq and work together and work with us against
the PKK.
TRT Television: It does not include the hot pursuit issue which is
something that the Turkish side wanted, and the Turkish public opinion
is saying that still the U.S. is backing the Iraqi Kurds and this is
not a good fate of NATO allies.
Assistant Secretary Fried: We do not think that the Iraqi government
or the Kurdistan regional government has done all it could and we
think they should do more. We've said so. This isn't a secret. We
hope Turkey and we can work with the President, Prime Minister of
Iraq and the Kurdish regional government, Mrs. Talibani, Barzani,
to make more progress. But they're not behind these PKK attacks. They
are allies and friends and we want to build on that partnership.
Turkish frustration is understandable. It just is. It's understandable
that people would react in anger to terrorist attacks.
We Americans do. We need to be smart in the way we go after the
terrorists.
TRT Television: Ambassador, in a few sentences, to make it clear
in the Turkish public perception, why should Turkey not carry any
cross-border operation? How is it going to hurt Turkish interests,
or is it going to hurt U.S. interests?
Assistant Secretary Fried: The question is not what makes you feel
good today but what works. Turkey has conducted cross-border attacks
in the past and the question is, does it work? What's the best way to
deal with the PKK? Not for tomorrow's headlines in the newspapers,
but to deal with it in a real way. It seems to me that there are a
combination of things that can be done. We want to work with Turkey.
It involves all of our assets working together and we intend to do
our best.
TRT Television: What's your understanding of the Turkish government's
performance?
Assistant Secretary Fried: In general or PKK?
TRT Television: On dealing with the PKK issue.
Assistant Secretary Fried: It's a very frustrating one. The last thing
I will do is be critical. I'm not at all. Turkey faces a dangerous,
difficult enemy and this is not easy. We want to work with Turkey. It's
in a tough place. And Turkish frustration is understandable. We have
to be smart and we have to do more.
TRT Television: If I may close this interview with a question not
related to you, within your capacity as an officer, but just as
an American.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Sure.
TRT Television: Would you please be kind enough to convey the
approaches or the strong desire among the American public to have
the Armenian genocide allegation be accepted? When we as Turkish
citizens, not as a journalist but as an ordinary Turkish individual,
I do observe that there is no question about whether the genocide
has taken place or not. It is generally accepted in the United States.
Where in Turkey it is generally accepted that, let's look at this
history all together. We think that massacre has taken place but it's
not only the Armenians, but also many Muslims, Anatolia Muslims have
also been killed. And when you look at it, it is something that we
do not see here in the U.S.. That it's not being discussed at all.
Why do you think that this side of Turkey has not find any voice among
the American people? Who is missing the dialogue or communication
link between the two nations?
Assistant Secretary Fried: Oh, that's a hard question because it is
a fact that terrible things happened. Up to a million and a half
Armenians were killed or forced into exile. Those are facts. The
United States and the United States government do not deny anything.
It's also true that the breakup of the Ottoman Empire in its kind of
last phase was a terrible one and terrible things happened. There were
atrocities, there were massacres, there was killing, there was a war,
and the Turkish government is right when it suggests that historians
need to look at this.
I think that the way ahead is for Turkey, like all honest governments
dealing with the dark spots of its history needs to do what we did, we
Americans did dealing with the dark spots of our history. Face up to it
and recognize that admitting bad things in your past doesn't make you
a bad nation. It makes you an honest one. That's an American lesson.
TRT Television: The Library of Congress has records of Armenian
massacres between 1914 and 1920 of 2.5 million Armenian Muslim
population. When we are talking about war time evidently we are really
talking about many precious lives being lost. Not only from one side,
but from both sides. Why is it not an issue for the U.S.
State Department to also talk about the losses in Anatolia or in
Azerbaijan of the Muslims?
Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, we speak about history carefully
because we're government bureaucrats, and after all, Turkey has
made the point that governments shouldn't try to get into history
as a matter of policy. So when you ask me to get into history as a
government bureaucrat I have to be careful.
But look, your point and the point of the Turkish government is that
historians should deal with this, but deal with it honestly. There
shouldn't be any taboo about dealing with these issues. No one
should be hauled up on charges for having talked about history. Not
anywhere. Not in France -- they have a law, as you know; not in Turkey,
Article 301; not anywhere. People have to discuss this in a way that
is open and honest and serious, and that's painful.
Look, in my lifetime it was still painful to talk about putting
Japanese-Americans in internment camps. It was embarrassing. It was
terrible what we did. We fought World War II for freedom and yet
we did this to our own people because they were Japanese? It's a
terrible thing. But you have to face up to your history. Everyone
does. All sides.
So an honest historical discussion is what's needed, but honest also
means painful.
TRT Television: Thank you, Ambassador.
Assistant Secretary Fried: My pleasure.
TRT Television: It's been a great pleasure for us, thank you.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Likewise.