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A DISCUSSION WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF TURKEY
The Charlie Rose Show
SHOW: THE CHARLIE ROSE SHOW 11:00 PM EST
September 27, 2007 Thursday
HOST: Charlie Rose
GUESTS: Recep Tayyip Erdogan
A discussion with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister of Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE, HOST: Welcome to the broadcast. Tonight, Recep Tayyip
Erdogan, the prime minister of Turkey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, PRIME MINISTER, TURKEY (through translator):
Most recently, there`s been a lot of discussion about this so-called
Armenian genocide issue. There`s a wrong approach here. This -- this
issue is not first and foremost an issue for us, the politicians,
to deal with. It must first be discussed by historians.
I wrote a letter to President Kocharian, to ask him to come together
with us help establish a commission, a joint commission, that would
include archaeologists, political scientists, legal experts, historians
and others. And I said that we should put all our archives at each
other`s disposal.
We opened our archives, and I asked him to open theirs if they have
archives, and the third countries could also do the same and avail
their archives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE ROSE: Turkey and the world through the eyes of prime minister,
coming up.
CHARLIE ROSE: Recep Tayyip Erdogan is the prime minister of Turkey
and leader of the Justice and Development Party. His party won a
landslide election victory this summer. It was the first time in more
than 50 years that the Turks returned an incumbent party to power
with an even greater majority. Prime Minister Erdogan was then able
to install his close ally, his friend and former foreign minister,
Abdullah Gul, as president.
We talked yesterday at the Turkish consulate here in New York, and
here is that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHARLIE ROSE: Mr. Prime Minister, thank you very much for allowing
us to have this conversation with you.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Thank you very much. Yes,
I`m very happy to be here.
CHARLIE ROSE: You had recent election victories. What are the
implications of the parliament and the new president, who is your
good friend and former foreign minister? What are the implications
for Turkey of these victories?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): First of all, let me say
that the elections on the 22nd of July was very important, because
in the last 53 years we`re the first government who has been able to
increase its vote for a second term. So there was no similar case
in the last 53 years. This had happened in 1954, and since 1954,
for the first time this year on July 22nd, we were able to increase
our votes by 40 percent compared to the previous election. And we
have more or less main maintained our majority in the parliament,
and our votes went from 34 percent in the previous election to 47
percent in this election.
This, of course, is important not just for us, but for those people
who believe in Turkey and who follow on development and stability
in Turkey.
And our slogan for the election was, there`s no stopping, we will
keep moving forward. And so we have in the first term of government
gone through perhaps what you might term a period of restoration,
and now we`re moving even faster. And in this second term we are now,
we have a new government. We have a president. And so the elections
are behind us now, and now the time has come to once again serve the
people. And we will succeed in that effort.
CHARLIE ROSE: Why do you think the military has shown some concern
about an erosion in secularism?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I have to say the following
on this point: One cannot speak of any such concern or danger in
Turkey. It cannot be the case, because our government continues to
implement secularism as it is defined in the 1982 Constitution. We are
a democratic, secular, social state, and we aim to strengthen all of
the institutions of this country, and this is the way we will move
forward. There cannot be any concessions made in any one of these
issues. And there is no one, or there cannot be anyone in our team
who believes otherwise. And our work continues -- will continue with
the same determination in the future.
But there may be people who may not be so happy with the AK Party
government right now, and it may be their approach now. But I think
over time, when they see the practice, those concerns will be overcome.
CHARLIE ROSE: As you know, even in the campaign for the presidency by
President Gul, the idea of his wife wearing a scarf became an issue
and a symbol. In France, the wearing of scarves is an issue and a
symbol. In Turkey in the Constitution, it restricts the wearing of
scarves in schools.
For those who think the loosening of that dictum means a loosening
of a commitment to secularism, what do you say?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Everybody is free to express
their opinion, of course. I don`t feel the need to specifically make
a specific response to that. But what I`m trying to do, and I will
tell you that, head scarf is not -- cannot be a political symbol. If
you look at the people who believe in my party, there are some who
cover their heads. If you look at other political parties in Turkey,
you will see that some of their members or the wives of some of them
are covering their heads.
So if we`re talking about a political symbol here, it would have
had to represent just one political party. But if you have it in all
of the political parties, then it is not a political symbol in that
sense of the word.
For example, in France, there`s this discussion about universities.
In France, you can enter a university with a head scarf. There`s no
restriction in the Constitution about the head scarf. And furthermore,
I find the discussion about it existing or not existing in another
country not a comparison, because then you have to look at all the
countries. Do you have it in the U.S. or in Germany? So you start
having to look at all of these. In those countries, which I have cited,
it is impossible to go to the university if you cover your head. In
France, too, the same thing applies. In many other countries, the
same thing is true.
But when you look at where this comes from, you see that a woman who
covers her head says that she covers her head because of her beliefs,
not for any other reason, and covers her head because of her beliefs.
So this is -- here, the issue is of freedoms. Freedom of education,
freedom of religion and conscience.
I think that is the approach we have to take. I think there`s a lot
of merit in looking at the issue from this perspective. This will
also help eliminate discrimination in society, because in fact,
up to a certain period in time, there was no such difficulty in our
universities. Those difficulties arose later on.
Of course, the more bans or barriers you have in a society, the more
you get radical enemies. We don`t want to have that kind of radicalism
emerging in any way. We don`t want to see that happen. We want to
stop it from happening.
What I would like to see is to have women who cover their heads
or don`t to go and walk around together, which they do. There`s no
problem with that. But some circles have certain concerns, but we`re
sorry to hear that they have those concerns, in fact.
CHARLIE ROSE: For those who say this election, this great election
success is somehow a challenge to Ataturk`s vision of secularism,
what do you say?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I cannot agree with those
thoughts. I think that that analogy is very wrong. That analogy is
disrespect to Ataturk, insult to Ataturk. Why? Because if you look
at -- when we look at what secularism means and we look at different
countries in the world and what happens in other countries, we see
that secularism is an understanding through which an administration
keeps an equal distance from all beliefs and religions. And it`s a way
to safeguard all beliefs. And this in fact exists in the introduction
of the 1982 Constitution. We will actually maintain that article as
such in our draft. So there`s nothing to be said on that.
Now, if we look at it in a different perspective, where we see it
as this separation of religion from state, there we maintain our
sensitivity, as has been the case in the past.
So there`s no issue for concern. There are some who are perhaps
trying to create some concern. But Turkey is a democratic, secular,
social state respecting the rule of law. And we see that every stake
(ph) in the democratic process strengthens those qualities of Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: Last two questions about this issue of Islam and
secularism in Turkey. "Newsweek" magazine said that this election
was less about secularists and Islamists than a seismic change in
the country`s elites and Turkey`s class structure. That in fact, it
was somehow a portrayal by those who are in a minority to intimidate
Islamists by raising the fear of an erosion of secularism. Do you
feel that the elites in Turkey have an unnatural fear of Islam and
Islamists in Turkey?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Right now, what we are
working on, and when people ask questions about what people believe
in in Turkey, and I mean ask the person on the street, the answer you
always get is that Turkey is 99 percent Muslim. I think there`s no
issue to discuss here. But if we see this election result as a class
struggle or a differentiation between social classes, I can agree to
this only to a certain extent, but I cannot fully agree to that.
Because in Turkey, in the understanding of AK Party, our goal is to
embrace the whole country.
For example, other political parties are active in only certain
parts of country, but AK Party has been able to get 80 -- get seats
from 80 provinces out of 81 provinces in Turkey, which means that
the party is represented all across the country. And the fact that
we got 47 percent of the vote means that we have actually an even
greater responsibility today.
So our aim is not to view our people from a class perspective. And I
mean to say or include all people having different beliefs. We have
to approach everyone. We have to embrace everyone. And that`s been
our goal.
Some elitists or elite circles have certain concerns, and their
concerns more have to do with the power struggle that they were
aiming at. And the election on the 22nd of July was a response to
that, and the people responded to that. One out of every two people
in Turkey voted for the AK Party, which was a response, a description
of the situation.
So what the elites have to do is sit down and ask themselves why
this has happened this way. They have to think of where they made the
mistake. And I think if they do that, they will find the right answers.
CHARLIE ROSE: Turning to the European Union. Is your enthusiasm,
President Gul`s enthusiasm, your party`s enthusiasm, the people of
Turkey`s enthusiasm for membership still strong?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I can say it`s even
stronger. The number of -- there are three actors or groups that
believe true in the EU membership process. First, the president,
the prime minister, myself, and the foreign minister. And as the
government, we have a team that believes in EU membership, and we`ll
keep working even harder.
Our country is an accession country right now. We`re negotiating for
membership, and we have already opened and closed negotiations for
one chapter. Three more chapters were opened for negotiation.
So I always say the following: It is not maybe so much important that
they take us in or not. We, in fact, implement the Copenhagen political
criteria. We call them Ankara criteria, Ankara political criteria,
and we implement them, and we keep working in this direction. Because
we have gone into this in order to improve the living standards of
our people, in order to have a better democracy, because we saw this
process as the place where civilizations can come together. And it
is for that reason or for those reasons that we will continue to work
in this area.
Our president continues to contact with -- have contacts with EU
member states. I`ll do the same, and our foreign minister, too. No
doubts about it.
CHARLIE ROSE: President Sarkozy, in conversations with me, he has
been opposed; in his campaign, opposed. He makes points about the
difference between Turkey and Europe. Are you changing his mind?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I actually called him
after his election to congratulate him at the time. And ever since
that discussion, I think quite a number of things have changed. And
I think this is very important from the point of view of Turkey and
France. Because Turkey and France have a history dating back many
centuries. There have been cultural cooperation, political, economic
cooperation in our political history.
We have been influenced mostly from France in our description and
definition of secularism. You see the French influence in that. And of
course, today, in the current process, we have always felt France`s
support with us in the EU process. And I believe that from this day
forward, there are many things we can do jointly. We spoke about them
between ourselves. Our foreign ministers, and our special envoys both
on our side and on President Sarkozy`s side, meet to talk about our
bilateral relations, as well as what we can do within the context of
the EU.
We will continue to hold these discussions. So after that work moves
forward, I will visit France, and I hope that then we will be able
to reach a decision.
CHARLIE ROSE: Talk to me about this issue of -- in a broader way and
considerations of a conflict between -- and what is necessary for
Islam and the West to reach a broader understanding of how they look
at issues that some people want to see as dividing issues.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I`m usually very open
and direct. Let me first of all say that we have to overcome some
of our preconceptions and we have to move away from prejudice. I do
not believe in a clash of civilizations in this world, and it is for
that reason that I`m working -- I am in the alliance of civilizations
with my colleagues. And we will continue to work in this area, and
the support there continues to grow every day to the alliance of
civilizations, that is.
As Turkey, we are at an ideal position to be a bridge between the West
and the Islamic, Muslim countries. We are a democratic, secular, social
state respecting the rule of law, and most of our citizens are Muslim.
So from that perspective, this is a way to show how a person who is
Muslim can live with democracy. And we have been able to show that.
And the -- in the Islamic world, there`s a lot of acceptance of
that fact.
The Christian world, or the Western world has had experiences, but
Turkey`s entry to the European Union will be very important in that
context, because 1.5 billion Muslims in the world are watching very
closely Turkey`s accession to the European Union. They`re waiting
for Turkey`s membership to the European Union, and I think that the
members of the European Union are in fact getting late. Things have
to move much more faster.
And if that happens, we would see many problems overcome. For example,
terrorism, fighting against terrorism. We have to establish a common
platform to fight against terrorism. And the biggest actor in that
struggle is Turkey, because Turkey is already fighting against
terrorism on all fronts. We also fight in our own country against
terrorism, but we also sent our troops to Afghanistan, and we have
also sent our troops to other parts of the world when invited to
maintain peace and to fight against terrorism.
And so, this goes to show that Turkey is always ready to fight against
terrorism. And we would expect our friends to do the same.
For example, Iraq is next door to Turkey, and we see that the
separatist terrorist organization in Turkey is based in Iraq. And
there`s a mechanism to prevent this terrorist organization from acting,
and that mechanism has to be functioning so that we succeed in fighting
against this separatist terrorist organization. These are the kinds
of things we worry about and we are concerned about.
So Turkey`s sensitivities with respect to terrorism, we expect the same
sensitivity from our friends, including, of course, our friends the
Americans. So, we never supported the idea that somebody`s terrorist
is better than others. We do not believe in terrorism of any kind. All
terrorists are bad. They have to be condemned no matter what religion
they come from.
And one more thing I want to say here. We consider anti-Semitism as
a crime against humanity, and I`m a prime minister who boldly stated
that. And in the same way we must also agree that Islamophobia is a
crime against humanity. One cannot judge Islam because there`s been
some terrorists who happen to believe in Islam, because terrorists
come from different backgrounds. From a Christian background or a
Jewish background or other backgrounds.
CHARLIE ROSE: There`s been much controversy here because of the
president of Iran and what he says about the Holocaust and what he
says about the right of Israel to exist. He comes from a theocracy, an
Islamic state. Shouldn`t you and other leaders be prepared to denounce
those views, which go against your own intellectual and moral judgment?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I did not follow the most
recent statements during my busy schedule here, but there have been
previous statements, some of which we do and some of which we do
not accept.
There`s one thing we have to say, and that is -- I think that every
person, especially the political leaders, have freedoms of their own,
as would any person, but that freedom should not in any way intervene
in the freedom space of another person. That is wrong no matter who
does it. If that were me, it would be wrong. If it`s the Iranian
leader, it would be wrong. So it`s the same for everyone.
CHARLIE ROSE: Some would argue that you don`t have to comment on every
position by every politician around the world. It would be silly
for you to have to do that. But the issue of the Holocaust, which
took place in Europe and is so clear to anyone, and to have someone
say that it`s not offends so many people that it is a responsibility,
some argue, for leaders like you, and especially comes from an Islamic
background, you know, to be clear how you feel about that. It`s not
just one more opinion by one more leader.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Of course, every statement
that I make is important, not just from the point of view of my
country, but also in an international context. And for that reason,
I mentioned establishing a message, finding a common message.
So any message that we would present as Turkey, for example, must be
in line with what the U.S. does or what France or what Israel does
and Iran does or the Gulf states, or Western countries or the Far
Eastern countries. We must all do it jointly.
So finding or expressing a certain attitude only by ourselves
will not solve the problem. I think the answer, the key comes in
establishing common attitudes. And the best place to do that is, of
course, the United Nations, the Security Council. But the Security
Council and steps that the Security Council could take within that
common understanding background will require overcoming many issues
and taking care of many issues, such as justice, being just and fair.
And as long as we`re just and fair and we have a democratic
understanding, I think we can reach a solution given the rules of law.
CHARLIE ROSE: Turn to Iraq. Do you fear a civil war if the United
States leaves, more egregious than now, more violent than now, in
which Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia might feel compelled to get involved?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): In Iraq at the moment, there
is a democratic process in transition. Of course, that is not completed
by any means. We see that. And we take the central government of Iraq
as the relevant party to us, and we have spoken to them a number of
times so far. And their minister of internal affairs was in my country
yesterday. He came with a big delegation, discussing fighting --
discussing issues like fighting against terrorism and security issues.
As you know, we have a tri-partite mechanism against the separatist
terrorist organization -- Turkey, the United States and Iraq -- so
that we would succeed in fighting against this separatist terrorist
organization.
Our -- well, we`ve always said that we`re in favor of territorial
integrity in Iraq. And we want to see Iraq free of sectarian violence
as soon as possible, because so long as that violence continues to
be the case, then it will be quite impossible to achieve political
stability in the country. And so to overcome these problems, what
is important is to ensure participation of the different groups,
the Shia, the Kurds, the Sunni. So the (inaudible) structure or to
be participatory for all these groups.
And there are many things we can do as Turkey. So we hope that others
can make good use of that opportunity that Turkey can provide. And
we`ve spoken about this to President Bush and Secretary Rice, and
we`ve been working on this. We`ve taken some good results, too. For
example, we made serious contributions to the entry of the Sunnis to
the last election in Iraq.
But as you can -- as we can all see, there are issues, problems,
still. And I think that we as Turkey can do, so we`re always maybe to
help to see if we can find solutions, because this is a fire raging
next door to our country, and we don`t want it to rage, to continue
to rage, because tens of hundreds of people die every day in Iraq.
And this is very sad. Our people are very close to the Iraqis. There
are relatives on both sides, family members in the southeastern part
of Turkey and the people living in Iraq, so that puts us in a very
different position vis-.-vis Iraq. It connects us. And therefore,
there are areas where we can be of help, and we continue to work on
those issues.
And I think -- I believe that if we can act without emotions, if we
can be more rational and include more neighboring countries, we would
be more successful.
At the end of October, on the 31st of October and the 1st of November,
there will be a meeting in Istanbul. And that meeting in Istanbul
will be a large meeting...
CHARLIE ROSE: Of the neighbors?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Yes. And the United States
will also participate.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. Yes.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): This will be the second
meeting after the meeting in Sharm el-Sheik. And the thinking now is
to establish a secretariat for this conference. And from the moment
that secretariat is established, there will be other steps that will
be contemplated.
So if that can be achieved, I think that this process will be moving
forward very seriously. And Istanbul, as Turkey, we`re very pleased
to host this conference, and I hope that this will lead to a turning
point towards better days.
CHARLIE ROSE: OK, help me understand how it can lead to a turning
point, because political reconciliation is the issue. Sunni, Kurds,
Shia. How can you help make that political reconciliation, of which
there`s very little progress, happen?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): What needs to be done in a
new election is to ensure that people can see their representatives
in the parliament, because that will make them more confident. And
it will also provide for a healthy information of government, and
that`s why I think how things move forward.
There are terrorist groups, but there are also the insurgents in
Iraq. I think one has to make a distinction between the insurgents and
the terrorist groups. Overcoming sectarian issues and assessing the
ethnic issues carefully are very important. And I think it`s probably
necessary to establish some sort of a timing and announce that timeline
about the withdrawal of coalition forces. There`s benefits...
CHARLIE ROSE: It`s important to establish a timeline for the withdrawal
of American forces?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Yes. Not just for the
American troops, but for all the troops coalitions.
CHARLIE ROSE: All the troops.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): And of course, what is
important here is not to have Iraq which is at conflict with its
neighbors. Iraq must have overcome its conflicts with its neighbors,
so that it can strengthen itself. And here, it must also be confirmed
that the underground and above ground resources of Iraq belong to
all of the Iraqi people.
The issue of Kirkuk in the north must also be resolved. It must have a
special status. The city must have a special status. If that city is
given to only one specific group, it becomes like a time bomb ready
to explode. So those are the kinds of things we have to take care of.
And with respect to the democratic process, census must be carefully
done or be -- voting registries must be prepared so that people feel
confident. And for that to happen, the central government must be
very careful, very sensitive. And the coalition forces, too, and
their sensitivity to all these issues are -- is very important. So
these are the kinds of things that will help have a more smoother
transition to a new era.
CHARLIE ROSE: What circumstances would demand that Turkey in its own
interest intervene militarily?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Now, we do not have an
aim, a goal of intervening in any way in Iraqi territory. However,
if there`s an intervention to our territory, if the terrorist
organization is basing itself in the neighboring country and is
posing a threat to our security and order, then, of course, we
would do whatever is necessary within the framework of a legitimate
right to defend our people, our nation. And nobody can question that,
because everybody will know that this is a rightful situation case of
self-defense. Otherwise, this is not a territorial -- in other words,
this is not a territorial issue.
CHARLIE ROSE: But you are against an independent Kurdistan.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Let me tell you this:
In Iraq, we cannot speak of what is going to happen as far as an
administrative structure there. We are not in a position to assist it,
but we have one goal, and that is the central government in Iraq.
CHARLIE ROSE: A strong central government?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): For that to happen, Turkey
will do what she can to help. Any structure that will endanger the
future of Iraq will no doubt be a cause for concern for the region
as a whole and it would endanger the territorial integrity of Iraq.
We speak or talk of al Qaeda. The name of the terrorist organization
is not maybe as important as what it does, because if it`s terror,
it`s terror, and we have to fight against it. That`s where the issue
lies. If that terrorist activity is based in northern Iraq right now,
we have to take whatever measures we can and we must take. And that
is the struggle we`re in. Countries that have suffered from terrorism
will know what this means and what it feels like, how it feels like,
and they understand what rightful struggle this is.
So, to us, a divided Iraq would be a reason of instability for the
future of Iraq.
CHARLIE ROSE: So you are against some kind of loose federalism, with
shared oil revenues, you would be against that? Because you want a
strong central government, not a loose federal?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Of course, administratively
speaking, every country will have its own system. In the U.S. it`s
different, in Germany it`s different. So to me, that is not the main
issue. So we should not be losing sight of the important facts. That`s
-- and the fact is territorial integrity of Iraq.
That`s the question we need to answer. And if we find a good answer,
an ideal answer, we`ll solve the problem.
CHARLIE ROSE: Just one last question about Iraq. What timetable do
you think ought to be in place for the removal, evacuation of American
troops? By the end of 2008?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): It`s not our job to give a
timeline. It`s the one -- people who are responsible, the actors in
this, who must decide it. But I think it would be wrong to have an
immediate withdrawal of all the troops. It has to be stage by stage,
step by step, over a certain period of time. And one must look at
the conditions on the ground at the time as well, because having
a withdrawal all at once would create or could create more crises
or difficulties.
But if that timeline were to be announced, that is going to help,
I think, because it will provide a greater sense of responsibility
for them.
CHARLIE ROSE: How would you assess U.S.-Turkish relations today? Have
they been damaged by the Iraqi war?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): There has been talk
of that, but from our point of view, no, there was no damage to
the relationship. Politically, socially, culturally, militarily,
we have relations with the United States in many fields, and at
the time there were some difficulties, at the time of the war, but
the problems did not arise from our side. Because we do not view
Turkish-American relations in a simplistic manner, because for us,
we believe that the relation is a very strong one.
For example, we have no problems in our political relationship right
now. I would like to see more economic relations, though, because I
think it`s very simplistic at this moment, it`s very small. Our volume
of trade is about $11 billion U.S. dollars at the moment, which is a
very small number for a country the size of United States and a country
like Turkey. That commercial relationship ought to have been expressed
in much greater numbers. And we are working very hard on that.
We hope to see American investors in Turkey, because Turkey has now
a very good -- a confident market, and we would like to see more
American investors coming and investing in Turkey. The investors
who already exist in Turkey say that they are very happy with the
investment they`ve made when I speak to them. And in this next term,
I think there will be more reason to invest, especially -- we have
expectations on more foreign direct investments.
On the political side, we have our cooperation at NATO, which is
still ongoing. We have the same kind of military cooperation. So
there`s no problem on that front either.
>>From this point forward, we hope that this will keep moving and
growing. As for contributing to global peace and prosperity, there,
of course, we`re always ready to do whatever we can to help.
CHARLIE ROSE: Tell me what you think of Orhan Pamuk, Nobel laureate.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): You just said that he
won the Nobel Prize for literature. Of course, here is citizen,
a Turkish citizen, who was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature,
we would be very proud of this and we are very proud of it, and very
happy indeed that he has been given this award for literature, that
he is a Nobel laureate. It`s a sense of pride for us. I congratulated
him, and I hope that he continue to be successful. I think he will be.
CHARLIE ROSE: And will not be restrained in what he might say publicly
on Turkish issues?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): As you know, the judiciary
is independent to make its own decisions. It`s not our job. It`s
their job. And it`s the same everywhere in the world.
I may not agree with everything Orhan Pamuk says. He may not agree
with everything I say. That`s understandable, and that`s something
everybody should accept. But his success in his area, in his field is
world-renowned. He has been awarded the Nobel Prize. So with respect
to the judicial process itself, we cannot in any way intervene with the
decisions of the court, but as far as I know, there are no more issues.
CHARLIE ROSE: There are no more. He said that to me, yes.
Turkey has a very flourishing economy. It`s growing at 9 or 10 percent,
yes? Seventeenth largest economy in the world.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): In the last 22 quarters,
we have had 7.3 percent growth.
CHARLIE ROSE: 7.3. That`s still good. Tell me both economically and
politically, because of your recent political success, enhancing your
opportunity, any misconceptions about Turkey and any role that you
want Turkey to play in the world?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): One point I would like to
underline: A very important area in the world. So this is a region
of strategic importance. And in this region, it is not enough for us
only to grasp the importance of the role that we can play. Our friends,
too, must well understand the role that Turkey can play. And we must,
of course, continue to develop ourselves to be able to fulfill that
role. And that`s what we have been doing and we continue to do.
And therefore, the economy was very important for us, and there
have been very good developments in the economic area, but it`s also
important to maintain that development, that level of development,
because we have to our north the Caucuses, and Iran and Central Asia to
our east, the Caspian as well. To the west, Europe. And in the south,
you have all the way to the Gulf.
So this is the geography that Turkey is in. And you see different
civilizations in that geography.
On the one hand, you have Europe. On the other hand, you have Asia.
So this all makes up the Turkish geography.
Turkey is a very important bridge between different cultures and
civilizations. And as a democratic, secular country whose population
is predominantly Muslim, it has shown to the world that those things
can exist together. And that is, in my opinion, very important and it
has its reflections through the region, and it constitutes therefore
an example.
So when we came to government, we had per capita income which was
$2,500 U.S. dollars. In five years, it went up to $6,000. The inflation
rate was at around 30 percent. It is now down to single-digit figures,
at 6.9 percent. Interest rates were 63, 64 percent. Now down to 17. So
these are all very important developments.
Our GDP went up to $400 billion U.S. from $181 billion five years
ago. And we have even greater targets for the future. And this creates
a lot of confidence in the region, too, what Turkey is doing.
We are also making friends, not enemies, and this is what we try to
do in other parts of the world as well.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you for this time. It`s very good to see you
again and I look forward to...
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): One more thing I want
to say, if you`ll let me. We don`t always have this opportunity to
appear on television, so I would like to take this opportunity to
say the following.
Most recently, there`s been a lot of discussion about this so-called
Armenian genocide issue. There`s a wrong approach here. This issue
is not first and foremost an issue for us, the politicians, to deal
with. It must first be discussed by historians.
I wrote a letter to President Kocharian to ask him to come, and
together with us, help establish a commission, a joint commission,
that would include archeologists, political sciences, legal experts,
historians and others. And I said that we should put all our archives
at each other`s disposal.
We opened our archives, and I asked him to open theirs if they have
archives, and the third countries can also do the same thing, and
avail their archives. So this joint commission could then work in
these archives, and we could then see or look at the reports.
And once we get those reports, then we can reach a decision. Because if
there is, there has been a crime, we are ready to settle our accounts
with our history.
But we know that that is not the case, so it would be wrong to
misrepresent this situation, and we should not give the opportunity
to those who want to somehow make use of this situation.
I have Armenian citizens in my country. And everyone knows how freely
they live in Turkey. And I just want to say that it would be wrong
to generalize certain individual issues and cases. The generalization
should not be made victim of individual cases.
Ever since I came -- we came to government, we have now direct
flights between two countries. On the eastern part of Turkey,
there`s an island called Akdamar on the Van lake. On that island,
there`s a church, an Armenian church. And we restored that church
by using our money, government treasury money, and it has been open,
the church is open. So there`s no problems with their lives in Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: I`m glad you brought that up. And obviously, that was
what -- it`s an important issue raised by the Armenians, and whether
there was a genocide in the early 20th century. It`s a -- you seem
to be saying that you are prepared to see a thorough investigation
of this issue and look at all the facts, and then to characterize it
for what it was. And if, in fact, it was a genocide, you are prepared
to recognize it, but you firmly believe it wasn`t.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): That is absolutely right.
And we`re saying that nevertheless, it should be researched. It should
be looked at. And we did already open our archives for that research.
More than one million documents are available now, and if Yerevan
did the same, why not. If there are third countries, if they have
any documentation, they should make them available. Why not? Let`s
move forward with this. Why should we be afraid? Why should anyone be
afraid? Why are they afraid? Where are the documents? Because it`s --
you cannot have this accusation without facts. The lobbies and the
discussions, those cannot be sufficient to judge a country like Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: I hear you saying, or at least feeling that Turkey has
to resolve this issue.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Yes, this is what I`m
trying to do.
CHARLIE ROSE: Again, thank you very much. Pleasure. I hope we can talk
again in Turkey. I know of no one who goes to Turkey who doesn`t come
back saying...
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Well, we hope to see you
in Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you. Thank you very much.
A conversation with the prime minister of Turkey. Thank you for
joining us. See you next time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress
The Charlie Rose Show
SHOW: THE CHARLIE ROSE SHOW 11:00 PM EST
September 27, 2007 Thursday
HOST: Charlie Rose
GUESTS: Recep Tayyip Erdogan
A discussion with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister of Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE, HOST: Welcome to the broadcast. Tonight, Recep Tayyip
Erdogan, the prime minister of Turkey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, PRIME MINISTER, TURKEY (through translator):
Most recently, there`s been a lot of discussion about this so-called
Armenian genocide issue. There`s a wrong approach here. This -- this
issue is not first and foremost an issue for us, the politicians,
to deal with. It must first be discussed by historians.
I wrote a letter to President Kocharian, to ask him to come together
with us help establish a commission, a joint commission, that would
include archaeologists, political scientists, legal experts, historians
and others. And I said that we should put all our archives at each
other`s disposal.
We opened our archives, and I asked him to open theirs if they have
archives, and the third countries could also do the same and avail
their archives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE ROSE: Turkey and the world through the eyes of prime minister,
coming up.
CHARLIE ROSE: Recep Tayyip Erdogan is the prime minister of Turkey
and leader of the Justice and Development Party. His party won a
landslide election victory this summer. It was the first time in more
than 50 years that the Turks returned an incumbent party to power
with an even greater majority. Prime Minister Erdogan was then able
to install his close ally, his friend and former foreign minister,
Abdullah Gul, as president.
We talked yesterday at the Turkish consulate here in New York, and
here is that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHARLIE ROSE: Mr. Prime Minister, thank you very much for allowing
us to have this conversation with you.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Thank you very much. Yes,
I`m very happy to be here.
CHARLIE ROSE: You had recent election victories. What are the
implications of the parliament and the new president, who is your
good friend and former foreign minister? What are the implications
for Turkey of these victories?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): First of all, let me say
that the elections on the 22nd of July was very important, because
in the last 53 years we`re the first government who has been able to
increase its vote for a second term. So there was no similar case
in the last 53 years. This had happened in 1954, and since 1954,
for the first time this year on July 22nd, we were able to increase
our votes by 40 percent compared to the previous election. And we
have more or less main maintained our majority in the parliament,
and our votes went from 34 percent in the previous election to 47
percent in this election.
This, of course, is important not just for us, but for those people
who believe in Turkey and who follow on development and stability
in Turkey.
And our slogan for the election was, there`s no stopping, we will
keep moving forward. And so we have in the first term of government
gone through perhaps what you might term a period of restoration,
and now we`re moving even faster. And in this second term we are now,
we have a new government. We have a president. And so the elections
are behind us now, and now the time has come to once again serve the
people. And we will succeed in that effort.
CHARLIE ROSE: Why do you think the military has shown some concern
about an erosion in secularism?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I have to say the following
on this point: One cannot speak of any such concern or danger in
Turkey. It cannot be the case, because our government continues to
implement secularism as it is defined in the 1982 Constitution. We are
a democratic, secular, social state, and we aim to strengthen all of
the institutions of this country, and this is the way we will move
forward. There cannot be any concessions made in any one of these
issues. And there is no one, or there cannot be anyone in our team
who believes otherwise. And our work continues -- will continue with
the same determination in the future.
But there may be people who may not be so happy with the AK Party
government right now, and it may be their approach now. But I think
over time, when they see the practice, those concerns will be overcome.
CHARLIE ROSE: As you know, even in the campaign for the presidency by
President Gul, the idea of his wife wearing a scarf became an issue
and a symbol. In France, the wearing of scarves is an issue and a
symbol. In Turkey in the Constitution, it restricts the wearing of
scarves in schools.
For those who think the loosening of that dictum means a loosening
of a commitment to secularism, what do you say?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Everybody is free to express
their opinion, of course. I don`t feel the need to specifically make
a specific response to that. But what I`m trying to do, and I will
tell you that, head scarf is not -- cannot be a political symbol. If
you look at the people who believe in my party, there are some who
cover their heads. If you look at other political parties in Turkey,
you will see that some of their members or the wives of some of them
are covering their heads.
So if we`re talking about a political symbol here, it would have
had to represent just one political party. But if you have it in all
of the political parties, then it is not a political symbol in that
sense of the word.
For example, in France, there`s this discussion about universities.
In France, you can enter a university with a head scarf. There`s no
restriction in the Constitution about the head scarf. And furthermore,
I find the discussion about it existing or not existing in another
country not a comparison, because then you have to look at all the
countries. Do you have it in the U.S. or in Germany? So you start
having to look at all of these. In those countries, which I have cited,
it is impossible to go to the university if you cover your head. In
France, too, the same thing applies. In many other countries, the
same thing is true.
But when you look at where this comes from, you see that a woman who
covers her head says that she covers her head because of her beliefs,
not for any other reason, and covers her head because of her beliefs.
So this is -- here, the issue is of freedoms. Freedom of education,
freedom of religion and conscience.
I think that is the approach we have to take. I think there`s a lot
of merit in looking at the issue from this perspective. This will
also help eliminate discrimination in society, because in fact,
up to a certain period in time, there was no such difficulty in our
universities. Those difficulties arose later on.
Of course, the more bans or barriers you have in a society, the more
you get radical enemies. We don`t want to have that kind of radicalism
emerging in any way. We don`t want to see that happen. We want to
stop it from happening.
What I would like to see is to have women who cover their heads
or don`t to go and walk around together, which they do. There`s no
problem with that. But some circles have certain concerns, but we`re
sorry to hear that they have those concerns, in fact.
CHARLIE ROSE: For those who say this election, this great election
success is somehow a challenge to Ataturk`s vision of secularism,
what do you say?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I cannot agree with those
thoughts. I think that that analogy is very wrong. That analogy is
disrespect to Ataturk, insult to Ataturk. Why? Because if you look
at -- when we look at what secularism means and we look at different
countries in the world and what happens in other countries, we see
that secularism is an understanding through which an administration
keeps an equal distance from all beliefs and religions. And it`s a way
to safeguard all beliefs. And this in fact exists in the introduction
of the 1982 Constitution. We will actually maintain that article as
such in our draft. So there`s nothing to be said on that.
Now, if we look at it in a different perspective, where we see it
as this separation of religion from state, there we maintain our
sensitivity, as has been the case in the past.
So there`s no issue for concern. There are some who are perhaps
trying to create some concern. But Turkey is a democratic, secular,
social state respecting the rule of law. And we see that every stake
(ph) in the democratic process strengthens those qualities of Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: Last two questions about this issue of Islam and
secularism in Turkey. "Newsweek" magazine said that this election
was less about secularists and Islamists than a seismic change in
the country`s elites and Turkey`s class structure. That in fact, it
was somehow a portrayal by those who are in a minority to intimidate
Islamists by raising the fear of an erosion of secularism. Do you
feel that the elites in Turkey have an unnatural fear of Islam and
Islamists in Turkey?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Right now, what we are
working on, and when people ask questions about what people believe
in in Turkey, and I mean ask the person on the street, the answer you
always get is that Turkey is 99 percent Muslim. I think there`s no
issue to discuss here. But if we see this election result as a class
struggle or a differentiation between social classes, I can agree to
this only to a certain extent, but I cannot fully agree to that.
Because in Turkey, in the understanding of AK Party, our goal is to
embrace the whole country.
For example, other political parties are active in only certain
parts of country, but AK Party has been able to get 80 -- get seats
from 80 provinces out of 81 provinces in Turkey, which means that
the party is represented all across the country. And the fact that
we got 47 percent of the vote means that we have actually an even
greater responsibility today.
So our aim is not to view our people from a class perspective. And I
mean to say or include all people having different beliefs. We have
to approach everyone. We have to embrace everyone. And that`s been
our goal.
Some elitists or elite circles have certain concerns, and their
concerns more have to do with the power struggle that they were
aiming at. And the election on the 22nd of July was a response to
that, and the people responded to that. One out of every two people
in Turkey voted for the AK Party, which was a response, a description
of the situation.
So what the elites have to do is sit down and ask themselves why
this has happened this way. They have to think of where they made the
mistake. And I think if they do that, they will find the right answers.
CHARLIE ROSE: Turning to the European Union. Is your enthusiasm,
President Gul`s enthusiasm, your party`s enthusiasm, the people of
Turkey`s enthusiasm for membership still strong?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I can say it`s even
stronger. The number of -- there are three actors or groups that
believe true in the EU membership process. First, the president,
the prime minister, myself, and the foreign minister. And as the
government, we have a team that believes in EU membership, and we`ll
keep working even harder.
Our country is an accession country right now. We`re negotiating for
membership, and we have already opened and closed negotiations for
one chapter. Three more chapters were opened for negotiation.
So I always say the following: It is not maybe so much important that
they take us in or not. We, in fact, implement the Copenhagen political
criteria. We call them Ankara criteria, Ankara political criteria,
and we implement them, and we keep working in this direction. Because
we have gone into this in order to improve the living standards of
our people, in order to have a better democracy, because we saw this
process as the place where civilizations can come together. And it
is for that reason or for those reasons that we will continue to work
in this area.
Our president continues to contact with -- have contacts with EU
member states. I`ll do the same, and our foreign minister, too. No
doubts about it.
CHARLIE ROSE: President Sarkozy, in conversations with me, he has
been opposed; in his campaign, opposed. He makes points about the
difference between Turkey and Europe. Are you changing his mind?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I actually called him
after his election to congratulate him at the time. And ever since
that discussion, I think quite a number of things have changed. And
I think this is very important from the point of view of Turkey and
France. Because Turkey and France have a history dating back many
centuries. There have been cultural cooperation, political, economic
cooperation in our political history.
We have been influenced mostly from France in our description and
definition of secularism. You see the French influence in that. And of
course, today, in the current process, we have always felt France`s
support with us in the EU process. And I believe that from this day
forward, there are many things we can do jointly. We spoke about them
between ourselves. Our foreign ministers, and our special envoys both
on our side and on President Sarkozy`s side, meet to talk about our
bilateral relations, as well as what we can do within the context of
the EU.
We will continue to hold these discussions. So after that work moves
forward, I will visit France, and I hope that then we will be able
to reach a decision.
CHARLIE ROSE: Talk to me about this issue of -- in a broader way and
considerations of a conflict between -- and what is necessary for
Islam and the West to reach a broader understanding of how they look
at issues that some people want to see as dividing issues.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I`m usually very open
and direct. Let me first of all say that we have to overcome some
of our preconceptions and we have to move away from prejudice. I do
not believe in a clash of civilizations in this world, and it is for
that reason that I`m working -- I am in the alliance of civilizations
with my colleagues. And we will continue to work in this area, and
the support there continues to grow every day to the alliance of
civilizations, that is.
As Turkey, we are at an ideal position to be a bridge between the West
and the Islamic, Muslim countries. We are a democratic, secular, social
state respecting the rule of law, and most of our citizens are Muslim.
So from that perspective, this is a way to show how a person who is
Muslim can live with democracy. And we have been able to show that.
And the -- in the Islamic world, there`s a lot of acceptance of
that fact.
The Christian world, or the Western world has had experiences, but
Turkey`s entry to the European Union will be very important in that
context, because 1.5 billion Muslims in the world are watching very
closely Turkey`s accession to the European Union. They`re waiting
for Turkey`s membership to the European Union, and I think that the
members of the European Union are in fact getting late. Things have
to move much more faster.
And if that happens, we would see many problems overcome. For example,
terrorism, fighting against terrorism. We have to establish a common
platform to fight against terrorism. And the biggest actor in that
struggle is Turkey, because Turkey is already fighting against
terrorism on all fronts. We also fight in our own country against
terrorism, but we also sent our troops to Afghanistan, and we have
also sent our troops to other parts of the world when invited to
maintain peace and to fight against terrorism.
And so, this goes to show that Turkey is always ready to fight against
terrorism. And we would expect our friends to do the same.
For example, Iraq is next door to Turkey, and we see that the
separatist terrorist organization in Turkey is based in Iraq. And
there`s a mechanism to prevent this terrorist organization from acting,
and that mechanism has to be functioning so that we succeed in fighting
against this separatist terrorist organization. These are the kinds
of things we worry about and we are concerned about.
So Turkey`s sensitivities with respect to terrorism, we expect the same
sensitivity from our friends, including, of course, our friends the
Americans. So, we never supported the idea that somebody`s terrorist
is better than others. We do not believe in terrorism of any kind. All
terrorists are bad. They have to be condemned no matter what religion
they come from.
And one more thing I want to say here. We consider anti-Semitism as
a crime against humanity, and I`m a prime minister who boldly stated
that. And in the same way we must also agree that Islamophobia is a
crime against humanity. One cannot judge Islam because there`s been
some terrorists who happen to believe in Islam, because terrorists
come from different backgrounds. From a Christian background or a
Jewish background or other backgrounds.
CHARLIE ROSE: There`s been much controversy here because of the
president of Iran and what he says about the Holocaust and what he
says about the right of Israel to exist. He comes from a theocracy, an
Islamic state. Shouldn`t you and other leaders be prepared to denounce
those views, which go against your own intellectual and moral judgment?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): I did not follow the most
recent statements during my busy schedule here, but there have been
previous statements, some of which we do and some of which we do
not accept.
There`s one thing we have to say, and that is -- I think that every
person, especially the political leaders, have freedoms of their own,
as would any person, but that freedom should not in any way intervene
in the freedom space of another person. That is wrong no matter who
does it. If that were me, it would be wrong. If it`s the Iranian
leader, it would be wrong. So it`s the same for everyone.
CHARLIE ROSE: Some would argue that you don`t have to comment on every
position by every politician around the world. It would be silly
for you to have to do that. But the issue of the Holocaust, which
took place in Europe and is so clear to anyone, and to have someone
say that it`s not offends so many people that it is a responsibility,
some argue, for leaders like you, and especially comes from an Islamic
background, you know, to be clear how you feel about that. It`s not
just one more opinion by one more leader.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Of course, every statement
that I make is important, not just from the point of view of my
country, but also in an international context. And for that reason,
I mentioned establishing a message, finding a common message.
So any message that we would present as Turkey, for example, must be
in line with what the U.S. does or what France or what Israel does
and Iran does or the Gulf states, or Western countries or the Far
Eastern countries. We must all do it jointly.
So finding or expressing a certain attitude only by ourselves
will not solve the problem. I think the answer, the key comes in
establishing common attitudes. And the best place to do that is, of
course, the United Nations, the Security Council. But the Security
Council and steps that the Security Council could take within that
common understanding background will require overcoming many issues
and taking care of many issues, such as justice, being just and fair.
And as long as we`re just and fair and we have a democratic
understanding, I think we can reach a solution given the rules of law.
CHARLIE ROSE: Turn to Iraq. Do you fear a civil war if the United
States leaves, more egregious than now, more violent than now, in
which Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia might feel compelled to get involved?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): In Iraq at the moment, there
is a democratic process in transition. Of course, that is not completed
by any means. We see that. And we take the central government of Iraq
as the relevant party to us, and we have spoken to them a number of
times so far. And their minister of internal affairs was in my country
yesterday. He came with a big delegation, discussing fighting --
discussing issues like fighting against terrorism and security issues.
As you know, we have a tri-partite mechanism against the separatist
terrorist organization -- Turkey, the United States and Iraq -- so
that we would succeed in fighting against this separatist terrorist
organization.
Our -- well, we`ve always said that we`re in favor of territorial
integrity in Iraq. And we want to see Iraq free of sectarian violence
as soon as possible, because so long as that violence continues to
be the case, then it will be quite impossible to achieve political
stability in the country. And so to overcome these problems, what
is important is to ensure participation of the different groups,
the Shia, the Kurds, the Sunni. So the (inaudible) structure or to
be participatory for all these groups.
And there are many things we can do as Turkey. So we hope that others
can make good use of that opportunity that Turkey can provide. And
we`ve spoken about this to President Bush and Secretary Rice, and
we`ve been working on this. We`ve taken some good results, too. For
example, we made serious contributions to the entry of the Sunnis to
the last election in Iraq.
But as you can -- as we can all see, there are issues, problems,
still. And I think that we as Turkey can do, so we`re always maybe to
help to see if we can find solutions, because this is a fire raging
next door to our country, and we don`t want it to rage, to continue
to rage, because tens of hundreds of people die every day in Iraq.
And this is very sad. Our people are very close to the Iraqis. There
are relatives on both sides, family members in the southeastern part
of Turkey and the people living in Iraq, so that puts us in a very
different position vis-.-vis Iraq. It connects us. And therefore,
there are areas where we can be of help, and we continue to work on
those issues.
And I think -- I believe that if we can act without emotions, if we
can be more rational and include more neighboring countries, we would
be more successful.
At the end of October, on the 31st of October and the 1st of November,
there will be a meeting in Istanbul. And that meeting in Istanbul
will be a large meeting...
CHARLIE ROSE: Of the neighbors?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Yes. And the United States
will also participate.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. Yes.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): This will be the second
meeting after the meeting in Sharm el-Sheik. And the thinking now is
to establish a secretariat for this conference. And from the moment
that secretariat is established, there will be other steps that will
be contemplated.
So if that can be achieved, I think that this process will be moving
forward very seriously. And Istanbul, as Turkey, we`re very pleased
to host this conference, and I hope that this will lead to a turning
point towards better days.
CHARLIE ROSE: OK, help me understand how it can lead to a turning
point, because political reconciliation is the issue. Sunni, Kurds,
Shia. How can you help make that political reconciliation, of which
there`s very little progress, happen?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): What needs to be done in a
new election is to ensure that people can see their representatives
in the parliament, because that will make them more confident. And
it will also provide for a healthy information of government, and
that`s why I think how things move forward.
There are terrorist groups, but there are also the insurgents in
Iraq. I think one has to make a distinction between the insurgents and
the terrorist groups. Overcoming sectarian issues and assessing the
ethnic issues carefully are very important. And I think it`s probably
necessary to establish some sort of a timing and announce that timeline
about the withdrawal of coalition forces. There`s benefits...
CHARLIE ROSE: It`s important to establish a timeline for the withdrawal
of American forces?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Yes. Not just for the
American troops, but for all the troops coalitions.
CHARLIE ROSE: All the troops.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): And of course, what is
important here is not to have Iraq which is at conflict with its
neighbors. Iraq must have overcome its conflicts with its neighbors,
so that it can strengthen itself. And here, it must also be confirmed
that the underground and above ground resources of Iraq belong to
all of the Iraqi people.
The issue of Kirkuk in the north must also be resolved. It must have a
special status. The city must have a special status. If that city is
given to only one specific group, it becomes like a time bomb ready
to explode. So those are the kinds of things we have to take care of.
And with respect to the democratic process, census must be carefully
done or be -- voting registries must be prepared so that people feel
confident. And for that to happen, the central government must be
very careful, very sensitive. And the coalition forces, too, and
their sensitivity to all these issues are -- is very important. So
these are the kinds of things that will help have a more smoother
transition to a new era.
CHARLIE ROSE: What circumstances would demand that Turkey in its own
interest intervene militarily?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Now, we do not have an
aim, a goal of intervening in any way in Iraqi territory. However,
if there`s an intervention to our territory, if the terrorist
organization is basing itself in the neighboring country and is
posing a threat to our security and order, then, of course, we
would do whatever is necessary within the framework of a legitimate
right to defend our people, our nation. And nobody can question that,
because everybody will know that this is a rightful situation case of
self-defense. Otherwise, this is not a territorial -- in other words,
this is not a territorial issue.
CHARLIE ROSE: But you are against an independent Kurdistan.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Let me tell you this:
In Iraq, we cannot speak of what is going to happen as far as an
administrative structure there. We are not in a position to assist it,
but we have one goal, and that is the central government in Iraq.
CHARLIE ROSE: A strong central government?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): For that to happen, Turkey
will do what she can to help. Any structure that will endanger the
future of Iraq will no doubt be a cause for concern for the region
as a whole and it would endanger the territorial integrity of Iraq.
We speak or talk of al Qaeda. The name of the terrorist organization
is not maybe as important as what it does, because if it`s terror,
it`s terror, and we have to fight against it. That`s where the issue
lies. If that terrorist activity is based in northern Iraq right now,
we have to take whatever measures we can and we must take. And that
is the struggle we`re in. Countries that have suffered from terrorism
will know what this means and what it feels like, how it feels like,
and they understand what rightful struggle this is.
So, to us, a divided Iraq would be a reason of instability for the
future of Iraq.
CHARLIE ROSE: So you are against some kind of loose federalism, with
shared oil revenues, you would be against that? Because you want a
strong central government, not a loose federal?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Of course, administratively
speaking, every country will have its own system. In the U.S. it`s
different, in Germany it`s different. So to me, that is not the main
issue. So we should not be losing sight of the important facts. That`s
-- and the fact is territorial integrity of Iraq.
That`s the question we need to answer. And if we find a good answer,
an ideal answer, we`ll solve the problem.
CHARLIE ROSE: Just one last question about Iraq. What timetable do
you think ought to be in place for the removal, evacuation of American
troops? By the end of 2008?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): It`s not our job to give a
timeline. It`s the one -- people who are responsible, the actors in
this, who must decide it. But I think it would be wrong to have an
immediate withdrawal of all the troops. It has to be stage by stage,
step by step, over a certain period of time. And one must look at
the conditions on the ground at the time as well, because having
a withdrawal all at once would create or could create more crises
or difficulties.
But if that timeline were to be announced, that is going to help,
I think, because it will provide a greater sense of responsibility
for them.
CHARLIE ROSE: How would you assess U.S.-Turkish relations today? Have
they been damaged by the Iraqi war?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): There has been talk
of that, but from our point of view, no, there was no damage to
the relationship. Politically, socially, culturally, militarily,
we have relations with the United States in many fields, and at
the time there were some difficulties, at the time of the war, but
the problems did not arise from our side. Because we do not view
Turkish-American relations in a simplistic manner, because for us,
we believe that the relation is a very strong one.
For example, we have no problems in our political relationship right
now. I would like to see more economic relations, though, because I
think it`s very simplistic at this moment, it`s very small. Our volume
of trade is about $11 billion U.S. dollars at the moment, which is a
very small number for a country the size of United States and a country
like Turkey. That commercial relationship ought to have been expressed
in much greater numbers. And we are working very hard on that.
We hope to see American investors in Turkey, because Turkey has now
a very good -- a confident market, and we would like to see more
American investors coming and investing in Turkey. The investors
who already exist in Turkey say that they are very happy with the
investment they`ve made when I speak to them. And in this next term,
I think there will be more reason to invest, especially -- we have
expectations on more foreign direct investments.
On the political side, we have our cooperation at NATO, which is
still ongoing. We have the same kind of military cooperation. So
there`s no problem on that front either.
>>From this point forward, we hope that this will keep moving and
growing. As for contributing to global peace and prosperity, there,
of course, we`re always ready to do whatever we can to help.
CHARLIE ROSE: Tell me what you think of Orhan Pamuk, Nobel laureate.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): You just said that he
won the Nobel Prize for literature. Of course, here is citizen,
a Turkish citizen, who was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature,
we would be very proud of this and we are very proud of it, and very
happy indeed that he has been given this award for literature, that
he is a Nobel laureate. It`s a sense of pride for us. I congratulated
him, and I hope that he continue to be successful. I think he will be.
CHARLIE ROSE: And will not be restrained in what he might say publicly
on Turkish issues?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): As you know, the judiciary
is independent to make its own decisions. It`s not our job. It`s
their job. And it`s the same everywhere in the world.
I may not agree with everything Orhan Pamuk says. He may not agree
with everything I say. That`s understandable, and that`s something
everybody should accept. But his success in his area, in his field is
world-renowned. He has been awarded the Nobel Prize. So with respect
to the judicial process itself, we cannot in any way intervene with the
decisions of the court, but as far as I know, there are no more issues.
CHARLIE ROSE: There are no more. He said that to me, yes.
Turkey has a very flourishing economy. It`s growing at 9 or 10 percent,
yes? Seventeenth largest economy in the world.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): In the last 22 quarters,
we have had 7.3 percent growth.
CHARLIE ROSE: 7.3. That`s still good. Tell me both economically and
politically, because of your recent political success, enhancing your
opportunity, any misconceptions about Turkey and any role that you
want Turkey to play in the world?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): One point I would like to
underline: A very important area in the world. So this is a region
of strategic importance. And in this region, it is not enough for us
only to grasp the importance of the role that we can play. Our friends,
too, must well understand the role that Turkey can play. And we must,
of course, continue to develop ourselves to be able to fulfill that
role. And that`s what we have been doing and we continue to do.
And therefore, the economy was very important for us, and there
have been very good developments in the economic area, but it`s also
important to maintain that development, that level of development,
because we have to our north the Caucuses, and Iran and Central Asia to
our east, the Caspian as well. To the west, Europe. And in the south,
you have all the way to the Gulf.
So this is the geography that Turkey is in. And you see different
civilizations in that geography.
On the one hand, you have Europe. On the other hand, you have Asia.
So this all makes up the Turkish geography.
Turkey is a very important bridge between different cultures and
civilizations. And as a democratic, secular country whose population
is predominantly Muslim, it has shown to the world that those things
can exist together. And that is, in my opinion, very important and it
has its reflections through the region, and it constitutes therefore
an example.
So when we came to government, we had per capita income which was
$2,500 U.S. dollars. In five years, it went up to $6,000. The inflation
rate was at around 30 percent. It is now down to single-digit figures,
at 6.9 percent. Interest rates were 63, 64 percent. Now down to 17. So
these are all very important developments.
Our GDP went up to $400 billion U.S. from $181 billion five years
ago. And we have even greater targets for the future. And this creates
a lot of confidence in the region, too, what Turkey is doing.
We are also making friends, not enemies, and this is what we try to
do in other parts of the world as well.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you for this time. It`s very good to see you
again and I look forward to...
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): One more thing I want
to say, if you`ll let me. We don`t always have this opportunity to
appear on television, so I would like to take this opportunity to
say the following.
Most recently, there`s been a lot of discussion about this so-called
Armenian genocide issue. There`s a wrong approach here. This issue
is not first and foremost an issue for us, the politicians, to deal
with. It must first be discussed by historians.
I wrote a letter to President Kocharian to ask him to come, and
together with us, help establish a commission, a joint commission,
that would include archeologists, political sciences, legal experts,
historians and others. And I said that we should put all our archives
at each other`s disposal.
We opened our archives, and I asked him to open theirs if they have
archives, and the third countries can also do the same thing, and
avail their archives. So this joint commission could then work in
these archives, and we could then see or look at the reports.
And once we get those reports, then we can reach a decision. Because if
there is, there has been a crime, we are ready to settle our accounts
with our history.
But we know that that is not the case, so it would be wrong to
misrepresent this situation, and we should not give the opportunity
to those who want to somehow make use of this situation.
I have Armenian citizens in my country. And everyone knows how freely
they live in Turkey. And I just want to say that it would be wrong
to generalize certain individual issues and cases. The generalization
should not be made victim of individual cases.
Ever since I came -- we came to government, we have now direct
flights between two countries. On the eastern part of Turkey,
there`s an island called Akdamar on the Van lake. On that island,
there`s a church, an Armenian church. And we restored that church
by using our money, government treasury money, and it has been open,
the church is open. So there`s no problems with their lives in Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: I`m glad you brought that up. And obviously, that was
what -- it`s an important issue raised by the Armenians, and whether
there was a genocide in the early 20th century. It`s a -- you seem
to be saying that you are prepared to see a thorough investigation
of this issue and look at all the facts, and then to characterize it
for what it was. And if, in fact, it was a genocide, you are prepared
to recognize it, but you firmly believe it wasn`t.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): That is absolutely right.
And we`re saying that nevertheless, it should be researched. It should
be looked at. And we did already open our archives for that research.
More than one million documents are available now, and if Yerevan
did the same, why not. If there are third countries, if they have
any documentation, they should make them available. Why not? Let`s
move forward with this. Why should we be afraid? Why should anyone be
afraid? Why are they afraid? Where are the documents? Because it`s --
you cannot have this accusation without facts. The lobbies and the
discussions, those cannot be sufficient to judge a country like Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: I hear you saying, or at least feeling that Turkey has
to resolve this issue.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Yes, this is what I`m
trying to do.
CHARLIE ROSE: Again, thank you very much. Pleasure. I hope we can talk
again in Turkey. I know of no one who goes to Turkey who doesn`t come
back saying...
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN (through translator): Well, we hope to see you
in Turkey.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you. Thank you very much.
A conversation with the prime minister of Turkey. Thank you for
joining us. See you next time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress