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British MP Steven Pound: Azerbaijan is a failed state
18:06 29/08/2014 >> INTERVIEWS
On the question of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the
United Kingdom as well as on the recent aggression of Azerbaijani
against Nagorno Karabakh and RA Panorama.am has spoken to British
Member of Parliament for Ealing North, member of British-Armenian
inter-parliamentary group Stephen Pound.
- Mr. Pound, you are a member of British-Armenian inter-parliamentary
group and you have been an advocate of closer relations between
Armenia and Britain. I wonder how you as a British person became
interested in Armenia and in Armenian issues in the first place.
- I have been interested in Armenia long before I became a member of
the British-Armenian parliamentary friendship group. One has to look
at the map of the world to see the strategic significance of Armenia
as a beacon of stability in the South Caucasus. Also, my first
interest in Armenia comes from rather more historical reasons, partly
because Armenia in 301 AD was the first country in the world that
declared itself a Christian country and secondly, because the
literature and the theology of Armenia is some of the oldest and most
respected in the world. This is an extraordinary country - even when
Armenia was subsumed in other empires it still managed to maintain its
original and unique qualities. Armenia is not like anywhere on earth.
Everything is different in Armenia, usually better. Also, as a human
being, particularly as we approach the 100th anniversary of Genocide
in April 2015, how can anyone look at Armenia without feeling kinship
and friendship and a tear in the eyes?
- You have actually raised the question of recognition of the Armenian
Genocide by the UK in the British Parliament and have been advocating
for this cause for a long time. What are the main challenges in this
process at present?
- I have raised the question in the UK Parliament two or three times
and I will continue to do that. I had a recent debate in the
Parliament on the Nagorno Karabakh issue, but it also touched the
issue of Genocide. First time we had a debate it was pointed out that
the word Genocide wasn't coined until 1946, but that argument to me is
an absurdity. I use the word Genocide because it was a systematic
attempt by the Ottoman Empire to destroy all Armenian people and it
destroyed virtually all of the Western Armenia - the entire Western
Armenian culture was destroyed. We know that and we know that the
reverberations of that have been felt to this day. So the fact that
there wasn't a particular word at a particular time is completely
tendentious. Genocide means slaughter of a people, it means to kill an
entire race and what happened in 1915 was probably the third Armenian
Genocide, at least the third. In the late 19th century there were two
specific attempts by the Ottoman Empire, mostly because of the fact
that Armenians were very successful. If you look at places like Van,
you will find that all the doctors by 1890s were Armenian; also most
of the successful businessmen, traders, book sellers and publishers
were Armenian.
- Apart from the argument that has to do with the coining of the term
Genocide as such, what are the main political obstacles preventing
Britain from recognizing the Armenian Genocide?
- In UK there is opposition towards recognition also because UK and
Turkey are a part of NATO and Turkey is becoming even more
significant, taking into account what's happening in Iraq now. Another
reason for the reluctance to admit the Armenian Genocide took place is
that England will then have to admit for example the Irish genocide
which took place in 1854 and also other genocides of the world.
However, recognition is important because to kill a people is cruel
enough but to deny that you've done it is a double cruelty and I see
this pain with many Armenian friends.
But there is some hope. Certainly in Ealing, my constituency in West
London, we commemorate the Genocide day every year - we have a
service, we have a garden of remembrance, we have an apricot tree.
Every time I go to the Genocide museum in Yerevan I see another series
of letters from the US, from cities of the United Kingdom, from
countries like France, commemorating and recognizing the Genocide. My
work will not be over until the United Kingdom recognizes what was the
first genocide of the 20th century, a genocide, which allowed other
genocides to happen.
- Mr. Pound, recently there has been a marked escalation of tensions
in the Nagorno Karabakh conflict zone (involving human losses) as
Azerbaijan has intensified ceasefire breaches shelling not only the
borders of Nagorno Karabakh but also the bordering regions of the
Republic of Armenia. Could you comment on these developments and
particularly on the stance of Azerbaijan that they supposedly have the
right to take back lands by military means?
- We have to establish one point here. I have been to Artsakh for two
or three times; anyone who sets foot on that part of the world, anyone
who goes from Shushi to Stepanakert and gets to know the area will see
that the very air is Armenian air, the soil, the churches, the
cross-stones are all Armenian and they have been there for thousands
and thousands years. Trying to claim that this is actually a suburb of
Baku is ludicrous.
However, there is a problem of sniping across the border and the
hostilities on the border are getting worse, partly because of the
interesting tactic by Azerbaijan to demonstrate that the conflict is
ongoing. If you go to Stepanakert you will see brand new houses and
villages being built all around the city - all the displaced people
have been provided an accommodation. If you go to Azerbaijan you will
see that there are still tents and refugee camps and it almost makes
you think thay actually want to keep that sense of grievance. To be
completely honest, Azerbaijan is a failed state, which is a byword for
corruption; Azerbaijan has completely no political legitimacy
whatsoever and is utterly corrupt at every level. In these
circumstances anything which destructs attention from Aliyev
administration and his family, such as unrest on the border, can
almost be seen as an advantage - this is the tactic of pointing the
blame outside.
But we have to do our best to solve this conflict. When we look at
nightmare situations happening in Palestine, Gaza, Israel, Northern
Iraq and all over the world, how can we not resolve this problem which
is one of the last relics of Stalinism? We know that Stalin was
drawing lines on the map back in 1920s and 1930s. We can put this
right just as other boundaries have been changed, and this has to be
recognized. It is not just about Nagorno Karabakh; there are other
parts of Armenia which are still claimed by Azerbaijan. We have to
resolve this once and for all. It has to be done through the Minsk
process because nobody wants to go to war.
- Azerbaijan's actions prior to war, during the war and after the war
(Safarov case, anti-Armenianism, bellicose rhetoric, blockade, etc.)
come to prove that Azerbaijan is up today posing an existential threat
to the people of Nagorno Karabakh. How do you think this question
should be resolved even if a peace deal is signed?
- Let's get one thing absolutely clear and put it on the record once
and forth. If the Armenian army had wanted to, it could have occupied
Baku at the end of the war. There was nothing standing in the way of
the army. So there is no threat from Armenia to Azerbaijan. It is
interesting actually to take a look at the success of what was
originally very poorly provided army fighting a country which had, I
think, two armoured divisions of Russian equipment that had been left
behind, they managed to win in a short time, but they did not move
forward to Baku when they did have the chance... If Armenia had
territorial ambitions the Armenians would have been in Baku today. So
there is no threat from Armenia to Azerbaijan. However, there is an
existential threat to Nagorno Karabakh from Azerbaijan. Stepanakert
airport would be opened tomorrow and the whole area would be opened up
for development if it wasn't for the threat of the missiles. I have
been to Stepanakert and I have seen missiles sticking out of the
walls. I have seen the monasteries in Artsakh and I saw that the
rockets fired from Azerbaijan were still there.
This is one of the most beautiful countries on earth. Yet if you want
to go from Yerevan to Stepanakert it takes you the best part of the
day to travel. We'd prefer to fly to Stepanakert and even have a
railroad built up to Shushi, but that can't happen at the moment
because of Azerbaijan's threat. The economic development has thus been
prevented in this way. As we know economic warfare is another aspect
of warfare and we have to halt this urgently!
- We know that Azerbaijan blacklists those foreigners who travel to
Nagorno Karabakh through Armenia, and you have been blacklisted as
well. What is your opinion about this?
- Yes, I have been blacklisted twice. Actually I have never been more
honoured to be on any other list. For me being on that black list is
like getting a Nobel Prize. I have no overpowering ambition to visit
Baku and the fact that I will not be allowed to is something I will
have to live with. I am quite happy to go to Gyumri, to Stepanakert
and to Yerevan.
- Speaking about Gyumri, as far as I know you are also interested in
establishing ties between Lord Byron School in Gyumri and schools in
Ealing, London. Can you say a couple of words about this?
- In Gyumri after the dreadful earthquake the Lord Byron School was
opened in 1990 and we have actually been raising quite a bit of money
locally because we have a lot of Armenian teachers here. I am still
trying to set up an exchange where people from Lord Byron School could
come to UK and teachers from UK could go there. That is in the working
process. That's something I will not allow myself to retire until I
have achieved.
- Mr. Pound, thank you very much for the interview and for all your
support to Armenian causes.
Interview by Nvard Chalikyan
http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2014/08/29/stephen-pound/
From: Baghdasarian
18:06 29/08/2014 >> INTERVIEWS
On the question of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the
United Kingdom as well as on the recent aggression of Azerbaijani
against Nagorno Karabakh and RA Panorama.am has spoken to British
Member of Parliament for Ealing North, member of British-Armenian
inter-parliamentary group Stephen Pound.
- Mr. Pound, you are a member of British-Armenian inter-parliamentary
group and you have been an advocate of closer relations between
Armenia and Britain. I wonder how you as a British person became
interested in Armenia and in Armenian issues in the first place.
- I have been interested in Armenia long before I became a member of
the British-Armenian parliamentary friendship group. One has to look
at the map of the world to see the strategic significance of Armenia
as a beacon of stability in the South Caucasus. Also, my first
interest in Armenia comes from rather more historical reasons, partly
because Armenia in 301 AD was the first country in the world that
declared itself a Christian country and secondly, because the
literature and the theology of Armenia is some of the oldest and most
respected in the world. This is an extraordinary country - even when
Armenia was subsumed in other empires it still managed to maintain its
original and unique qualities. Armenia is not like anywhere on earth.
Everything is different in Armenia, usually better. Also, as a human
being, particularly as we approach the 100th anniversary of Genocide
in April 2015, how can anyone look at Armenia without feeling kinship
and friendship and a tear in the eyes?
- You have actually raised the question of recognition of the Armenian
Genocide by the UK in the British Parliament and have been advocating
for this cause for a long time. What are the main challenges in this
process at present?
- I have raised the question in the UK Parliament two or three times
and I will continue to do that. I had a recent debate in the
Parliament on the Nagorno Karabakh issue, but it also touched the
issue of Genocide. First time we had a debate it was pointed out that
the word Genocide wasn't coined until 1946, but that argument to me is
an absurdity. I use the word Genocide because it was a systematic
attempt by the Ottoman Empire to destroy all Armenian people and it
destroyed virtually all of the Western Armenia - the entire Western
Armenian culture was destroyed. We know that and we know that the
reverberations of that have been felt to this day. So the fact that
there wasn't a particular word at a particular time is completely
tendentious. Genocide means slaughter of a people, it means to kill an
entire race and what happened in 1915 was probably the third Armenian
Genocide, at least the third. In the late 19th century there were two
specific attempts by the Ottoman Empire, mostly because of the fact
that Armenians were very successful. If you look at places like Van,
you will find that all the doctors by 1890s were Armenian; also most
of the successful businessmen, traders, book sellers and publishers
were Armenian.
- Apart from the argument that has to do with the coining of the term
Genocide as such, what are the main political obstacles preventing
Britain from recognizing the Armenian Genocide?
- In UK there is opposition towards recognition also because UK and
Turkey are a part of NATO and Turkey is becoming even more
significant, taking into account what's happening in Iraq now. Another
reason for the reluctance to admit the Armenian Genocide took place is
that England will then have to admit for example the Irish genocide
which took place in 1854 and also other genocides of the world.
However, recognition is important because to kill a people is cruel
enough but to deny that you've done it is a double cruelty and I see
this pain with many Armenian friends.
But there is some hope. Certainly in Ealing, my constituency in West
London, we commemorate the Genocide day every year - we have a
service, we have a garden of remembrance, we have an apricot tree.
Every time I go to the Genocide museum in Yerevan I see another series
of letters from the US, from cities of the United Kingdom, from
countries like France, commemorating and recognizing the Genocide. My
work will not be over until the United Kingdom recognizes what was the
first genocide of the 20th century, a genocide, which allowed other
genocides to happen.
- Mr. Pound, recently there has been a marked escalation of tensions
in the Nagorno Karabakh conflict zone (involving human losses) as
Azerbaijan has intensified ceasefire breaches shelling not only the
borders of Nagorno Karabakh but also the bordering regions of the
Republic of Armenia. Could you comment on these developments and
particularly on the stance of Azerbaijan that they supposedly have the
right to take back lands by military means?
- We have to establish one point here. I have been to Artsakh for two
or three times; anyone who sets foot on that part of the world, anyone
who goes from Shushi to Stepanakert and gets to know the area will see
that the very air is Armenian air, the soil, the churches, the
cross-stones are all Armenian and they have been there for thousands
and thousands years. Trying to claim that this is actually a suburb of
Baku is ludicrous.
However, there is a problem of sniping across the border and the
hostilities on the border are getting worse, partly because of the
interesting tactic by Azerbaijan to demonstrate that the conflict is
ongoing. If you go to Stepanakert you will see brand new houses and
villages being built all around the city - all the displaced people
have been provided an accommodation. If you go to Azerbaijan you will
see that there are still tents and refugee camps and it almost makes
you think thay actually want to keep that sense of grievance. To be
completely honest, Azerbaijan is a failed state, which is a byword for
corruption; Azerbaijan has completely no political legitimacy
whatsoever and is utterly corrupt at every level. In these
circumstances anything which destructs attention from Aliyev
administration and his family, such as unrest on the border, can
almost be seen as an advantage - this is the tactic of pointing the
blame outside.
But we have to do our best to solve this conflict. When we look at
nightmare situations happening in Palestine, Gaza, Israel, Northern
Iraq and all over the world, how can we not resolve this problem which
is one of the last relics of Stalinism? We know that Stalin was
drawing lines on the map back in 1920s and 1930s. We can put this
right just as other boundaries have been changed, and this has to be
recognized. It is not just about Nagorno Karabakh; there are other
parts of Armenia which are still claimed by Azerbaijan. We have to
resolve this once and for all. It has to be done through the Minsk
process because nobody wants to go to war.
- Azerbaijan's actions prior to war, during the war and after the war
(Safarov case, anti-Armenianism, bellicose rhetoric, blockade, etc.)
come to prove that Azerbaijan is up today posing an existential threat
to the people of Nagorno Karabakh. How do you think this question
should be resolved even if a peace deal is signed?
- Let's get one thing absolutely clear and put it on the record once
and forth. If the Armenian army had wanted to, it could have occupied
Baku at the end of the war. There was nothing standing in the way of
the army. So there is no threat from Armenia to Azerbaijan. It is
interesting actually to take a look at the success of what was
originally very poorly provided army fighting a country which had, I
think, two armoured divisions of Russian equipment that had been left
behind, they managed to win in a short time, but they did not move
forward to Baku when they did have the chance... If Armenia had
territorial ambitions the Armenians would have been in Baku today. So
there is no threat from Armenia to Azerbaijan. However, there is an
existential threat to Nagorno Karabakh from Azerbaijan. Stepanakert
airport would be opened tomorrow and the whole area would be opened up
for development if it wasn't for the threat of the missiles. I have
been to Stepanakert and I have seen missiles sticking out of the
walls. I have seen the monasteries in Artsakh and I saw that the
rockets fired from Azerbaijan were still there.
This is one of the most beautiful countries on earth. Yet if you want
to go from Yerevan to Stepanakert it takes you the best part of the
day to travel. We'd prefer to fly to Stepanakert and even have a
railroad built up to Shushi, but that can't happen at the moment
because of Azerbaijan's threat. The economic development has thus been
prevented in this way. As we know economic warfare is another aspect
of warfare and we have to halt this urgently!
- We know that Azerbaijan blacklists those foreigners who travel to
Nagorno Karabakh through Armenia, and you have been blacklisted as
well. What is your opinion about this?
- Yes, I have been blacklisted twice. Actually I have never been more
honoured to be on any other list. For me being on that black list is
like getting a Nobel Prize. I have no overpowering ambition to visit
Baku and the fact that I will not be allowed to is something I will
have to live with. I am quite happy to go to Gyumri, to Stepanakert
and to Yerevan.
- Speaking about Gyumri, as far as I know you are also interested in
establishing ties between Lord Byron School in Gyumri and schools in
Ealing, London. Can you say a couple of words about this?
- In Gyumri after the dreadful earthquake the Lord Byron School was
opened in 1990 and we have actually been raising quite a bit of money
locally because we have a lot of Armenian teachers here. I am still
trying to set up an exchange where people from Lord Byron School could
come to UK and teachers from UK could go there. That is in the working
process. That's something I will not allow myself to retire until I
have achieved.
- Mr. Pound, thank you very much for the interview and for all your
support to Armenian causes.
Interview by Nvard Chalikyan
http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2014/08/29/stephen-pound/
From: Baghdasarian