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Dimitri Simes: Force Should Not Be An Instrument Of World Politics

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  • Dimitri Simes: Force Should Not Be An Instrument Of World Politics

    DIMITRI SIMES: FORCE SHOULD NOT BE AN INSTRUMENT OF WORLD POLITICS

    RIA Novosti
    17:10 | 27/ 06/ 2008

    Interview with Dimitri K. Simes, president of the Nixon Center

    Question: Mr. Simes, what could you say about the American presidential
    race? Hasn't John McCain been neglected as the Republican nominee
    while Americans were watching the duel between Hillary Clinton and
    Barack Obama?

    Answer: Quite the contrary, McCain was very lucky that the Democrats
    were engaged in self-destruction. Travelling across the country, he was
    making speeches as if he were the official presidential nominee. But
    McCain has much less money than his rivals because this year Americans,
    including potential donors, are not too pro-Republican. He would have
    had a very hard time if he had to compete against another Republican
    candidate in the same way as his Democratic rivals. But in the event
    he managed to outline his positions on major economic and national
    security issues, while the two Democrats were shooting poison-tipped
    arrows at each other. So he was not in a bad position at all.

    Q: They say that ordinary Americans do not care much about foreign
    policy and are a lot more interested in domestic problems. Is this
    right?

    A: To a certain extent, yes. At any rate, Iraq is the only
    international issue on the agenda of this election campaign. This
    is only natural, because it has a direct bearing on the domestic
    situation. The war has cost at least $500 billion. Some authorities,
    for instance Nobel Prize winner Joseph Stiglitz, maintain that the
    real spending is up to $3 trillion. About 4,000 Americans have been
    killed in the war. That is a very high price for the nation.

    Free trade is another headache. American customers are ostensibly
    supplied with cheap Chinese goods and bad Chinese food. This is a
    major domestic issue. Problems unrelated to everyday life are given
    minimal attention in the election campaign.

    Q: It is said that you are well aware which American politicians
    influence and advise the nominees.

    A: McCain's group of advisors includes realists who are advocate
    a pragmatic foreign policy, for instance, Henry Kissinger and
    Robert McFarlane. They support McCain but their influence on him is
    limited. Neoconservatives have a much stronger impact on him, and
    he has unequivocally veered in their direction. He has adopted their
    approach not only to Russia but also to China. He believes that the
    United States has the right to use force to spread democracy. He
    also thinks that Iran should be threatened. This is a typically
    neoconservative approach to foreign policy.

    Obama is more pragmatic than McCain and is more open to international
    dialogue. He wants to talk to all countries. His opponents criticize
    him for this on the grounds that he may betray U.S. interests by
    making unnecessary concessions. But Obama is not afraid of such
    accusations. He believes that in international relations it is
    not appropriate to tell the other side: "We are good and you are
    bad," or that "we love your people and will outline your national
    interests." Most of his advisors support this line.

    Michael McFall, an expert on Russia, strongly criticized Moscow for its
    domestic policy and enthusiastically supported the idea of advancing
    democracy as the main direction of U.S. foreign policy. But even he
    has toned down his language since he joined Obama's team. McFall,
    for instance, objected to McCain's proposal to oust Russia from the G8.

    Q: Speaking recently in Washington, McCain's close associate Robert
    McFarlane reassured his audience that if McCain brings hawks into his
    administration and they quarrel with Russia, he will dismiss all of
    them in a year. Do you think this is possible?

    A: If McCain becomes president, collides with the real world and
    America gets a rap on the knuckles as a result, he will not persist
    with it. He will bring other, more pragmatic people into the cabinet
    instead. McFarlane was not the only one to make this forecast. But
    the fact remains that for the time being, McCain sounds more like
    a neoconservative.

    Q: Some analysts in Russia as well as Europe believe that if Obama
    is elected, it will be easier for him and his Russian counterpart
    to come to terms because the two young presidents are not burdened
    with stereotypes.

    What could you say on this score?

    A: For starters, I think that Dmitry Medvedev is constrained by
    commitments and circumstances. I don't expect him to make major
    concessions in the next few years. There is an idea in America and
    Europe at the moment that Medvedev should prove his worth, and not
    in Russia but in the West.

    As for Obama, we should bear in mind that an American president is a
    powerful man. There is no division of power between the president and
    prime minister in America. Both positions are held by one and the same
    person, which would give Obama a lot of room for maneuver. Moreover, if
    he is elected he will be trusted by the Democratic-dominated Congress.

    But not everything will be so easy for Obama. Many Congressmen favor
    the expansion of NATO, in particular Georgia's entry. I don't think
    that he would choose to start with this. It seems easier to win the
    elections than to get out of this predicament.

    Not everything is simple in Europe, either. The new Europe does not
    speak with a single voice. I primarily mean new EU members. They
    are louder than the others, and they want NATO and the EU to be
    more anti-Russian.

    Georgia was not admitted to NATO, but it was promised membership, so
    it has to be backed no matter what difficulties it has in relations
    with Russia.

    There is big bad Russia (this is not my position but the view of
    many in NATO) and small democratic Georgia. NATO's duty is to support
    Georgia without going into the details of the squabble.

    This is why I don't expect rapid changes. Nobody in Washington is
    going to fight Russia over Tskhinvali or Sukhumi. I told President
    Mikheil Saakashvili this to his face at a Nixon Center event, and he
    got a bit offended. But I told him the truth. There are forces in
    America which are ready not only to support but even to encourage
    him. But those same forces are not ready to use America's military
    might to resolve Georgia's problems with the breakaway republics.

    Q: But, as we all understand, Russia will not hold itself aloof,
    and Georgia's smoldering conflict with South Ossetia or Abkhazia may
    develop into serious confrontation between the big powers. Couldn't
    this be a dangerous turn of event?

    A: I do not expect a third world war, or a new war in Europe, or a
    war in the Caucasus with serious international repercussions. But
    I'm concerned that even minor hostilities in this region are bound
    to trigger off political confrontation between Russia and the United
    States and between Russia and NATO. This brinkmanship would destroy
    all that they have achieved in the last few years. If this happens,
    they are not likely to cooperate even on such crucial security issues
    as the fight against terrorism or nuclear proliferation. Who would
    help his potential enemy? If this happens, allies will be chosen not
    according to where they are wanted but where they are available, be it
    in Tehran or Caracas. I see this situation as dangerous not because
    it may lead to a total war between Russia and the West but because
    a local armed conflict may block Russia's cooperation with the West.

    Q: Why is the West supporting Ukraine's NATO bid, whereas it is clear
    that at a referendum the majority of Ukrainians would vote against
    NATO entry?

    A: Ukraine's Constitution does not provide for a referendum on its
    membership of international organizations. We can argue whether this
    is right or wrong, and discuss the advisability of this step and
    its aftermath.

    This is what Ukrainian society is doing, but the Constitution does
    not commit the government to a referendum. They have a legitimate
    parliament, which is authorized to make decisions by majority vote
    and procedures for endorsing any international treaty.

    I recall that at one time Bulgaria wanted to join the Soviet Union. But
    if someone wants to become part of your union, you don't have to
    accept this.

    NATO was not established to defend its members against
    Russia. Its mission is to promote peace, stability and political
    predictability. I'm not quite sure how new invisible lines of conflicts
    in Europe will enhance NATO's security. It's obvious that Russia poses
    no military threat to NATO. Threats are emanating from quite different
    directions, such as Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and al-Qaeda. It
    is not in the interests of NATO to turn Russia from a partner into
    an opponent.

    Ukraine has its own motives, and NATO has the right to say: guys,
    you'll have to wait. In theory, any country can join NATO. This is
    what Ukraine and Georgia heard at the summit in Bucharest. But this
    does not at all mean that they will be part of NATO any time soon. As
    for Georgia, its entry is not worth a serious discussion. It does not
    control its own territory, or, to be more precise, the territories
    which it claims. NATO's Charter does not allow the admission of
    countries with territorial conflicts. I believe that Georgia should
    make up its mind - if it wants to join NATO it should give up on
    Abkhazia and South Ossetia, or it should delay its application for
    NATO membership until the problems with these breakaway republics
    are resolved.

    Q: There are many other formations with unresolved status on
    post-Soviet territory, and they all want to be recognized both by
    Russia and the world community...

    A: Moldova's President Vladimir Voronin gave Vladimir Putin a different
    answer on NATO's membership. Unlike Saakashvili, he said that Moldova
    is not going to apply for it at this point, and Russia has become more
    flexible in its approach to the republic's territorial integrity. I
    believe that in general Russia supports Chisinau's efforts to resolve
    the crisis by granting greater autonomy to Transdnestr within Moldova.

    As for Nagorny Karabakh, it is not simply unrecognized
    territory. Today, it is part and parcel of Armenia; and if Azerbaijan
    does not regain it, I don't see how it may be returned to Baku.

    Saakashvili had a chance to launch a process of peaceful incorporation
    for Abkhazia and South Ossetia when he regained Adzharia without any
    objections from Russia. He had talks with Putin and promised him not to
    rush with shutting down Russian military bases. But he did everything
    he could to have them closed earlier than was envisaged by contractual
    commitments, although they did not threaten Georgia militarily in any
    way. Later on he started posing as the leading champion of "velvet"
    revolutions and the expansion of NATO's influence in a region which
    Russia traditionally considered its sphere of influence. Finally,
    he did not make any social or economic promises to Abkhazia or South
    Ossetia. He went in the opposite direction, and eventually confronted
    Russia.

    Q: Do you think the point of no return has been passed?

    A: I think it has been passed for Saakashvili.

    Q: What do U.S. politicians think about Russian-European relations?

    A: They are not viewed as in crisis. But there are many things on
    which American politicians are not fully clear. Thus, they don't
    understand too well how the Medvedev-Putin political tandem will
    work. But America will be ready for dialogue with either or both of
    them. And any statements either of them makes will be perceived as
    articulating Moscow's position.

    Q: Will the war in Iraq ever end?

    A: All wars come to an end eventually. But nobody knows when. McCain
    rightly said that the scale of war is a major issue. If the war costs
    $10 billion rather than $100 billion per year, and if the losses
    are brought down to less than 20 soldiers per month, there will be
    no rush to stop it. But it cannot continue indefinitely. The war
    will adversely affect the Muslim world and divert America from other
    priorities. The U.S. administration will look for ways of quitting
    Iraq, but it wants to make sure that Iraq does not fall to pieces,
    descend into a civil war, or host al-Qaeda bases.

    But in America, the president proposes but Congress disposes. It
    controls the funds; and no matter what McCain decides to do about
    Iraq, he will have to expect resistance from the overwhelming majority
    of Democratic Congressmen, who will remember that they were elected
    with a clear-cut mandate to end the war. McCain will have to confront
    Congress and risk a defeat in Iraq, like in Vietnam, all the more so
    because he will have to continue the war without aircraft, helicopters
    and ammunition. But this is not even an option. So, he will have to
    find some formula under Congressional pressure which would allow him
    to do what Obama suggests, that is, start a gradual troop pullout
    from Iraq. I'm sure that any president will have to do this.

    Q: Does the United States still believe that democracy can be spread
    by force of arms?

    A: Personally, I have never favored imposition of any values by
    force of arms. But the United States came to Afghanistan because of
    9/11. By the way, in Afghanistan, America and Russia were partners,
    and Russia cooperated with the Northern Alliance, which played a key
    role in the Taliban's downfall.

    As for Iraq, it is very difficult to understand why the United States
    intervened there. Apparently, some people had some motives beyond U.S.

    security. George W. Bush had always wanted to take revenge for the
    Hussein regime's attempt to assassinate his father in Beirut. Some
    neoconservatives believed that the war would help Israel. There were
    many reports about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Although
    Russia, France and Germany were not as convinced of this as the United
    States, nobody denied that Iraq might have had them. The dictator
    was playing highly suspicious games with inspectors. Sanctions were
    not working and could not be prolonged indefinitely.

    There were fears that this situation, which could be hardly described
    as deterrence, a situation of neither peace nor war, could provoke him
    into some desperate escapade with weapons of mass destruction. This
    is why the majority of Congressmen and the U.S. foreign policy
    establishment supported the idea of war. But it transpired later
    that the United States was poorly prepared for the war. To be more
    precise, Washington was not ready to deal with the aftermath. It
    had no idea about the alignment of political forces in Iraq and had
    no plan for post-war arrangements in the country. But for all this,
    bringing democracy to Iraq was not America's main goal. This is why
    today neoconservatives say that events in Iraq do not discredit the
    idea of spreading democracy.

    But I believe that the very concept of installing democracy by force
    is intrinsically flawed. Also, if we are convinced that by definition
    democracy implies the electorate's right to make mistakes, elect some
    people today and kick them out of office tomorrow, we should respect
    the right of other nations to make decisions, whether right or wrong.

    I think that except in genocide or other extreme cases, armed
    force should not be used for changing the domestic situation
    in any country. Force should not be an instrument of world
    politics. Otherwise, we won't even know where we will land. The United
    States is not likely to be the only country that would want the right
    to intervene militarily. Most likely, many other countries would like
    to press on with their own ideas, including those which the United
    States finds objectionable.

    Q: Will President Bush be rated as the worst U.S. president when
    he retires?

    A: History has it that contemporaries can never predict how history
    will judge their rulers. Harry Truman was once rated as the worst
    U.S. president, but now he is quite popular. I would be stunned if
    Bush is called an outstanding president. But people will remember
    that except for 9/11, there were no acts of terror against the nation
    and that he did not draw America into any other war but in Iraq,
    although some of his associates are tempted to do something about
    Iran before they go.

    Much depends on the economic situation which his successor inherits. If
    the current recession is merely a stage of economic growth, Bush's
    image will be quite positive. After all, presidents are rated not
    only for what they have done but also for what they leave behind.
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