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Radikal website, Turkey
Aug 28 2008
We attach great importance to Gul's visit
Murat Yetkin's interview with Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan
Yerevan: Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan, reiterating his invitation
to President Abdullah Gul to watch the 6 September national football
[soccer] match in Yerevan together with him, said he sees this match
as an opportunity for relations between the two countries to be
promoted. Asserting that he believes the point that the relationship
has brought the leaderships of both countries to the threshold of
making important decisions, Sargsyan said: "Important decisions are
not made easily. There will be those who oppose these decisions, both
in Armenia and in Turkey. But I am certain that positive decisions
will be supported by the majority of the people in both countries."
Sargsyan continued as follows:
"Positive impressions are important in the taking of positive
decisions. Speaking in front of the public and speaking while looking
into the eyes of the person opposite you are different things. If I
did not believe that this trip were very important, I would not have
invited Mr Gul."
Following are the responses that Armenian President Sargsyan provided
to Radikal's questions:
Good opportunity
[Yetkin] The match on 6 September between the Turkish and Armenian
national football teams can be characterized as the most political
sports event that has yet been seen, at least in our region. In
inviting President Abdullah Gul to watch the match together, what was
your expectation, politically?
[Sargsyan] First of all, my purpose was the promotion of relations
between Armenia and Turkey. In the message of congratulation that
President Gul sent following my election, there was mention of the
possibility of the development of relations. Later, Prime Minister
Recep Tayyip Erdogan spoke of the doors being open for dialogue. And
so I, in response, decided to make use of this opportunity. There is
a good sporting event in front of us. Our national football teams
will confront one another for the first time in our history. This
could provide a good opportunity for our relations to develop. What
the [match] results are is not important; I hope that it will be a
good game, from which the spectators will derive pleasure. Excitement
will be high. This match will be an extraordinary event in our
relations, and I hope that it will also be extraordinary with
attendance by the Presidents of both Armenia and Turkey. We are
neighbours, and we will continue to be neighbours. I think it will be
more beneficial for both peoples to have normal relations. I issued
my invitation to Mr Gul within this framework.
[Yetkin] There are certain concerns in Ankara regarding this
invitation, such as question marks in terms of border issues, and the
things that President Gul might encounter in Yerevan. Do you see these
concerns, and do you consider them valid?
[Sargsyan] There should be no such concerns. The logistical and
technical preparations aside, we have invited a head of state, and
every sort of measure for the appropriate reception of a head of state
has been considered.
[Yetkin] I have spoken with the Dashnaktsutyun Party, and they are
opposed to this invitation of yours. They say that they will do all in
their power to make their voices heard if Gul comes to Yerevan. This
is why I asked the question.
[Sargsyan] I think that the things that they would do to make their
voices heard would not go beyond behaviour that would be acceptable
for official visits of this type. I would consider that those engaging
in uncivilized behaviour would be doing this against Armenia and
myself rather than Gul, since I was the one who invited him.
Regional projects
[Yetkin] What do you think about the projects among Turkey,
Azerbaijan, and Georgia in the energy and transportation areas that,
as long as there is peace and stability, will increase the prosperity
in the region? Does Armenia want to take part in these projects? Do
you think that you will one day be accepted in Turkey like the
Azerbaijani and Georgian leaders, and that Turkish leaders will accept
an invitation to Yerevan without hesitation?
[Sargsyan] You know, I have taken two lessons from the regional
projects that have been implemented to date. First, if all the
countries in the region do not participate, or if one is excluded,
this produces new lines of division. Second, if in these projects
political considerations take precedence over economic ones, the
projects are unable to be as successful as they should. In one of
these projects, it is as if the cart were being put before the horse.
[Yetkin] What project are you speaking of?
[Sargsyan] The (Baku-Tbilisi-)Kars railroad, for instance... There in
fact already exists such a railroad. (He was speaking of the track
that is not used because the border with Armenia is closed - MY) With
very little expenditure, it could be made usable. Great sums are being
expended in order to keep Armenia out.
There have been visits to Turkey by Armenian leaders in the past. I as
well, in various positions, have visited Turkey more than once. I
consider that for neighbours to visit one another is natural, and that
this should not be perceived by the other side as some sort of
favour. Indeed, we are working for this to come about.
[Yetkin] When President Gul was together with Azerbaijani President
Ilham Aliyev and Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili at the linkage
ceremony for the Baku-Tbilisi-Kars railroad, he said that Armenia as
well, if it respected international law, would be able to participate
in these projects. Was he, in your view, referring to the existing
borders, which came about with the 1921 agreement?
[Sargsyan] I think that you would get a clearer answer if you were to
ask this to Gul. But I can say this: Armenia is a party to a great
many international agreements, starting with the United Nations
Charter, and respects its international obligations.
Territorial issues
[Yetkin] Let me ask more clearly. There are circles in Armenia that
call a portion of Turkey "Western Armenia" and call for territory to
be demanded in accord with the Treaty of Sevres. You must certainly
appreciate that it is not easy to establish full diplomatic relations
with your neighbours who debate your borders. What is your view, and
your official position, regarding the legitimacy and the recognition
of the 1921 Kars agreement?
[Sargsyan] I do not recall that any official of Armenia has spoken of
a territorial demand. But I do hear this from the other side
(referring to Turkey - MY). I think that it is not appropriate to take
isolated statements as a basis. If you look at that, there are those
in Turkey who say that there does not in fact exist any country called
Armenia. We want there to be no precondition in our relations with
Turkey.
I have heard concerns about the expressions Eastern and Western
Armenia from Turkish officials as well. This strikes me as strange,
because these are geographical expressions that were used in the 19th
century. Insistence on forgetting and erasing this expression, which
has remained in the past, resembles rejecting the existence of a great
many other geographical expressions that have remained in the past,
such as Sparta, the Russian Empire, and the Ottoman Empire. If this
were our official policy, we would be called not the Republic of
Armenia but the Republic of Eastern Armenia. No official of Armenia
has had any such ambition. If diplomatic relations should be
established, these topics could be discussed more easily. Just look:
Russia has border issues with China and with Japan, but this is not an
obstacle to diplomatic relations.
Georgia
[Yetkin] Since your invitation to Gul, serious developments have come
about in the Caucasus, such as the Georgian-Russian dispute. What do
you think about the support that Russia has been providing to South
Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are breaking away from Georgia?
[Sargsyan] Truly there have occurred tragic incidents, which have cost
untold lives. This has shown yet once again what sorts of things an
arms race can lead to in issues like this. We favour problems of this
sort being resolved through negotiations. We favour a people's right
to determine its own destiny being taken into account. Unfortunately,
it seems as if things are going to escalate, and this does not please
us at all. We believe that implementation of the plan agreed to by
Russian head of state Dmitriy Medvedev and French head of state
Nicolas Sarkozy, on behalf of the EU, will bring peace and
stability. Peace and stability are very important for us. All else
aside, we conduct over 70 per cent of our trade through Georgia.
[Yetkin] A gasoline shortage has begun in Yerevan as a result of
Russia's bombing of the railroad bridge in Georgia, hasn't it?
[Sargsyan] True. I am hoping that the problem will be solved within
two days. It is an obvious fact that instability in the region is not
in Armenia's interests. This shows that we have a need for
stability. For the instability to continue for three months, or for
three years, would yet further increase our problems.
[Yetkin] Foreign Minister Eduard Nalbandyan has reacted positively to
Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's proposal of a Caucasus Stability and
Cooperation Platform. Could you detail your policy in this regard a
bit more?
[Sargsyan] Nalbandyan, as Armenia's Foreign Minister, announced that
he was positive towards Erdogan's words regarding dialogue for the
sake of stability and security in the region. I believe that our
Foreign Minister has taken a very proper step. When we receive the
proposal, we will study its details, and we will announce our stance.
Nagornyy Karabakh
[Yetkin] Do you think that the issue of Nagornyy Karabakh, which is a
problem in your relations both with Azerbaijan and with Turkey, will
be solved in the short term? Can you see that your reaching agreement
with Azerbaijan will increase the level of political and economic
cooperation in the region?
[Sargsyan] The meeting I had on 6 June in St Petersburg with President
Aliyev of Azerbaijan went well. Both of us directed our Foreign
Ministers to work on the Madrid Principles; they have now come
together three times. I hope that we will find a solution soon.
[Yetkin] Can you give an approximate date?
[Sargsyan] It would not be appropriate to make a prediction prior to
the elections in Azerbaijan. We will see the developments following
the elections.
[Yetkin] Do you see a similarity between the situations in South
Ossetia and Abkhazia, on the one hand, and Nagornyy Karabakh on the
other? I am asking because you spoke of a people's need for the right
of self-determination.
[Sargsyan] All of these disputes have both similarities and
differences. Rather than dwelling on the similarities and differences,
I think we should focus on the lessons to be drawn. We see that
efforts to solve the problems through military methods give rise to
dangerous consequences that cannot be foreseen. I wonder how many
people (in Georgia), before getting involved in this action, saw that
they would encounter such consequences. We have to be very careful.
[Yetkin] Looked at from the outside, it is seen that relations between
Turkey and Armenia have been locked for years on the genocide
issue. Is this right, in your view? Will the relations, in your
opinion, not move forward as long as Turkey does not recognize the
tragic events of 1915, and before and afterwards, as genocide? Is this
a precondition?
The past not to affect relations
[Sargsyan] You cannot find a single Armenian on the face of the earth
who believes that it was not genocide. But we absolutely do not see
the recognition of the genocide as a precondition in the development
of our relations with Turkey. It is indeed for this reason that we say
that we are prepared to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey
without any preconditions.
[Yetkin] What do you think about the establishment of a historical
commission in order to study what really happened in 1915? In your
view, could a commission for normalization of relations, as proposed
by the Armenian side, and a historical commission be managed in
parallel with one another?
[Sargsyan] I think we need a new view on this issue as well. Because I
cannot remember that a non-state commission has ever to date been
established for the sake of resolving problems between states. The
best solution would be to establish diplomatic relations. In this way,
below a commission to be established between the governments, any
number of sub-commissions or groups could be established. Previously,
a similar commission was established in the United States. Did it
produce results? Second, you have to bring about normal working
conditions for your experts and your scholars. And for this, you have
to have normal diplomatic relations. Efforts conducted with diplomatic
relations and without diplomatic relations would be entirely different
from one another.
[Yetkin] Do you believe that the ongoing covert diplomatic discussions
between Turkey and Armenia will produce a result?
[Sargsyan] Certainly; if I didn't believe that they would bring
results, it would be impossible for me to support them. But going
beyond these discussions, I believe that the course of the
relationship shows that we, the leaders of the two countries, have
come to the stage of being able to make decisions. These will not be
easy decisions. Not all in the societies of Armenia and Turkey will
approve these decisions. But I am certain that positive decisions will
be supported by the majority in the societies. I do not mean by this
the diplomats' efforts; I am referring to the general
atmosphere. Gul's message of congratulations, Erdogan's words, my
invitation to Gul, and even this interview that I am having with you
are all a part of this atmosphere. In this sense, I believe that we
are coming to the stage of making decisions.
[Yetkin] How will Gul's coming or not coming to Yerevan impact this
situation?
[Sargsyan] I believe that it is important. Because people do not reach
important decisions easily. Personal relationships are important. To
speak before the public, and to speak while looking into the eyes of
the person opposite you, are two different things. If I did not
believe that this visit was important, I would not have invited Mr
Gul.
We are neighbours. We have gone through difficult times in our
history. But Armenia is prepared to develop the relations. We expect
the same thing from Turkey as well.
Note: This interview was handled via interpretation between Armenian
and English.
[translated from Turkish]
Aug 28 2008
We attach great importance to Gul's visit
Murat Yetkin's interview with Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan
Yerevan: Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan, reiterating his invitation
to President Abdullah Gul to watch the 6 September national football
[soccer] match in Yerevan together with him, said he sees this match
as an opportunity for relations between the two countries to be
promoted. Asserting that he believes the point that the relationship
has brought the leaderships of both countries to the threshold of
making important decisions, Sargsyan said: "Important decisions are
not made easily. There will be those who oppose these decisions, both
in Armenia and in Turkey. But I am certain that positive decisions
will be supported by the majority of the people in both countries."
Sargsyan continued as follows:
"Positive impressions are important in the taking of positive
decisions. Speaking in front of the public and speaking while looking
into the eyes of the person opposite you are different things. If I
did not believe that this trip were very important, I would not have
invited Mr Gul."
Following are the responses that Armenian President Sargsyan provided
to Radikal's questions:
Good opportunity
[Yetkin] The match on 6 September between the Turkish and Armenian
national football teams can be characterized as the most political
sports event that has yet been seen, at least in our region. In
inviting President Abdullah Gul to watch the match together, what was
your expectation, politically?
[Sargsyan] First of all, my purpose was the promotion of relations
between Armenia and Turkey. In the message of congratulation that
President Gul sent following my election, there was mention of the
possibility of the development of relations. Later, Prime Minister
Recep Tayyip Erdogan spoke of the doors being open for dialogue. And
so I, in response, decided to make use of this opportunity. There is
a good sporting event in front of us. Our national football teams
will confront one another for the first time in our history. This
could provide a good opportunity for our relations to develop. What
the [match] results are is not important; I hope that it will be a
good game, from which the spectators will derive pleasure. Excitement
will be high. This match will be an extraordinary event in our
relations, and I hope that it will also be extraordinary with
attendance by the Presidents of both Armenia and Turkey. We are
neighbours, and we will continue to be neighbours. I think it will be
more beneficial for both peoples to have normal relations. I issued
my invitation to Mr Gul within this framework.
[Yetkin] There are certain concerns in Ankara regarding this
invitation, such as question marks in terms of border issues, and the
things that President Gul might encounter in Yerevan. Do you see these
concerns, and do you consider them valid?
[Sargsyan] There should be no such concerns. The logistical and
technical preparations aside, we have invited a head of state, and
every sort of measure for the appropriate reception of a head of state
has been considered.
[Yetkin] I have spoken with the Dashnaktsutyun Party, and they are
opposed to this invitation of yours. They say that they will do all in
their power to make their voices heard if Gul comes to Yerevan. This
is why I asked the question.
[Sargsyan] I think that the things that they would do to make their
voices heard would not go beyond behaviour that would be acceptable
for official visits of this type. I would consider that those engaging
in uncivilized behaviour would be doing this against Armenia and
myself rather than Gul, since I was the one who invited him.
Regional projects
[Yetkin] What do you think about the projects among Turkey,
Azerbaijan, and Georgia in the energy and transportation areas that,
as long as there is peace and stability, will increase the prosperity
in the region? Does Armenia want to take part in these projects? Do
you think that you will one day be accepted in Turkey like the
Azerbaijani and Georgian leaders, and that Turkish leaders will accept
an invitation to Yerevan without hesitation?
[Sargsyan] You know, I have taken two lessons from the regional
projects that have been implemented to date. First, if all the
countries in the region do not participate, or if one is excluded,
this produces new lines of division. Second, if in these projects
political considerations take precedence over economic ones, the
projects are unable to be as successful as they should. In one of
these projects, it is as if the cart were being put before the horse.
[Yetkin] What project are you speaking of?
[Sargsyan] The (Baku-Tbilisi-)Kars railroad, for instance... There in
fact already exists such a railroad. (He was speaking of the track
that is not used because the border with Armenia is closed - MY) With
very little expenditure, it could be made usable. Great sums are being
expended in order to keep Armenia out.
There have been visits to Turkey by Armenian leaders in the past. I as
well, in various positions, have visited Turkey more than once. I
consider that for neighbours to visit one another is natural, and that
this should not be perceived by the other side as some sort of
favour. Indeed, we are working for this to come about.
[Yetkin] When President Gul was together with Azerbaijani President
Ilham Aliyev and Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili at the linkage
ceremony for the Baku-Tbilisi-Kars railroad, he said that Armenia as
well, if it respected international law, would be able to participate
in these projects. Was he, in your view, referring to the existing
borders, which came about with the 1921 agreement?
[Sargsyan] I think that you would get a clearer answer if you were to
ask this to Gul. But I can say this: Armenia is a party to a great
many international agreements, starting with the United Nations
Charter, and respects its international obligations.
Territorial issues
[Yetkin] Let me ask more clearly. There are circles in Armenia that
call a portion of Turkey "Western Armenia" and call for territory to
be demanded in accord with the Treaty of Sevres. You must certainly
appreciate that it is not easy to establish full diplomatic relations
with your neighbours who debate your borders. What is your view, and
your official position, regarding the legitimacy and the recognition
of the 1921 Kars agreement?
[Sargsyan] I do not recall that any official of Armenia has spoken of
a territorial demand. But I do hear this from the other side
(referring to Turkey - MY). I think that it is not appropriate to take
isolated statements as a basis. If you look at that, there are those
in Turkey who say that there does not in fact exist any country called
Armenia. We want there to be no precondition in our relations with
Turkey.
I have heard concerns about the expressions Eastern and Western
Armenia from Turkish officials as well. This strikes me as strange,
because these are geographical expressions that were used in the 19th
century. Insistence on forgetting and erasing this expression, which
has remained in the past, resembles rejecting the existence of a great
many other geographical expressions that have remained in the past,
such as Sparta, the Russian Empire, and the Ottoman Empire. If this
were our official policy, we would be called not the Republic of
Armenia but the Republic of Eastern Armenia. No official of Armenia
has had any such ambition. If diplomatic relations should be
established, these topics could be discussed more easily. Just look:
Russia has border issues with China and with Japan, but this is not an
obstacle to diplomatic relations.
Georgia
[Yetkin] Since your invitation to Gul, serious developments have come
about in the Caucasus, such as the Georgian-Russian dispute. What do
you think about the support that Russia has been providing to South
Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are breaking away from Georgia?
[Sargsyan] Truly there have occurred tragic incidents, which have cost
untold lives. This has shown yet once again what sorts of things an
arms race can lead to in issues like this. We favour problems of this
sort being resolved through negotiations. We favour a people's right
to determine its own destiny being taken into account. Unfortunately,
it seems as if things are going to escalate, and this does not please
us at all. We believe that implementation of the plan agreed to by
Russian head of state Dmitriy Medvedev and French head of state
Nicolas Sarkozy, on behalf of the EU, will bring peace and
stability. Peace and stability are very important for us. All else
aside, we conduct over 70 per cent of our trade through Georgia.
[Yetkin] A gasoline shortage has begun in Yerevan as a result of
Russia's bombing of the railroad bridge in Georgia, hasn't it?
[Sargsyan] True. I am hoping that the problem will be solved within
two days. It is an obvious fact that instability in the region is not
in Armenia's interests. This shows that we have a need for
stability. For the instability to continue for three months, or for
three years, would yet further increase our problems.
[Yetkin] Foreign Minister Eduard Nalbandyan has reacted positively to
Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's proposal of a Caucasus Stability and
Cooperation Platform. Could you detail your policy in this regard a
bit more?
[Sargsyan] Nalbandyan, as Armenia's Foreign Minister, announced that
he was positive towards Erdogan's words regarding dialogue for the
sake of stability and security in the region. I believe that our
Foreign Minister has taken a very proper step. When we receive the
proposal, we will study its details, and we will announce our stance.
Nagornyy Karabakh
[Yetkin] Do you think that the issue of Nagornyy Karabakh, which is a
problem in your relations both with Azerbaijan and with Turkey, will
be solved in the short term? Can you see that your reaching agreement
with Azerbaijan will increase the level of political and economic
cooperation in the region?
[Sargsyan] The meeting I had on 6 June in St Petersburg with President
Aliyev of Azerbaijan went well. Both of us directed our Foreign
Ministers to work on the Madrid Principles; they have now come
together three times. I hope that we will find a solution soon.
[Yetkin] Can you give an approximate date?
[Sargsyan] It would not be appropriate to make a prediction prior to
the elections in Azerbaijan. We will see the developments following
the elections.
[Yetkin] Do you see a similarity between the situations in South
Ossetia and Abkhazia, on the one hand, and Nagornyy Karabakh on the
other? I am asking because you spoke of a people's need for the right
of self-determination.
[Sargsyan] All of these disputes have both similarities and
differences. Rather than dwelling on the similarities and differences,
I think we should focus on the lessons to be drawn. We see that
efforts to solve the problems through military methods give rise to
dangerous consequences that cannot be foreseen. I wonder how many
people (in Georgia), before getting involved in this action, saw that
they would encounter such consequences. We have to be very careful.
[Yetkin] Looked at from the outside, it is seen that relations between
Turkey and Armenia have been locked for years on the genocide
issue. Is this right, in your view? Will the relations, in your
opinion, not move forward as long as Turkey does not recognize the
tragic events of 1915, and before and afterwards, as genocide? Is this
a precondition?
The past not to affect relations
[Sargsyan] You cannot find a single Armenian on the face of the earth
who believes that it was not genocide. But we absolutely do not see
the recognition of the genocide as a precondition in the development
of our relations with Turkey. It is indeed for this reason that we say
that we are prepared to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey
without any preconditions.
[Yetkin] What do you think about the establishment of a historical
commission in order to study what really happened in 1915? In your
view, could a commission for normalization of relations, as proposed
by the Armenian side, and a historical commission be managed in
parallel with one another?
[Sargsyan] I think we need a new view on this issue as well. Because I
cannot remember that a non-state commission has ever to date been
established for the sake of resolving problems between states. The
best solution would be to establish diplomatic relations. In this way,
below a commission to be established between the governments, any
number of sub-commissions or groups could be established. Previously,
a similar commission was established in the United States. Did it
produce results? Second, you have to bring about normal working
conditions for your experts and your scholars. And for this, you have
to have normal diplomatic relations. Efforts conducted with diplomatic
relations and without diplomatic relations would be entirely different
from one another.
[Yetkin] Do you believe that the ongoing covert diplomatic discussions
between Turkey and Armenia will produce a result?
[Sargsyan] Certainly; if I didn't believe that they would bring
results, it would be impossible for me to support them. But going
beyond these discussions, I believe that the course of the
relationship shows that we, the leaders of the two countries, have
come to the stage of being able to make decisions. These will not be
easy decisions. Not all in the societies of Armenia and Turkey will
approve these decisions. But I am certain that positive decisions will
be supported by the majority in the societies. I do not mean by this
the diplomats' efforts; I am referring to the general
atmosphere. Gul's message of congratulations, Erdogan's words, my
invitation to Gul, and even this interview that I am having with you
are all a part of this atmosphere. In this sense, I believe that we
are coming to the stage of making decisions.
[Yetkin] How will Gul's coming or not coming to Yerevan impact this
situation?
[Sargsyan] I believe that it is important. Because people do not reach
important decisions easily. Personal relationships are important. To
speak before the public, and to speak while looking into the eyes of
the person opposite you, are two different things. If I did not
believe that this visit was important, I would not have invited Mr
Gul.
We are neighbours. We have gone through difficult times in our
history. But Armenia is prepared to develop the relations. We expect
the same thing from Turkey as well.
Note: This interview was handled via interpretation between Armenian
and English.
[translated from Turkish]