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ARMENIAN LEADER TALKS TO DER SPIEGEL
news.az
April 6 2010
Azerbaijan
Serzh Sargsyan German weekly Der Spiegel has published on its website
an interview with the Armenian president that has already provoked
a response from Baku.
Russian versions of the interview appeared yesterday on Armenian
websites. The Armenian president's spokesman, Armen Arzumanyan,
told Tert.Am on Monday that Der Spiegel had promised to correct what
he described as inaccuracies in the weekly's published version of
President Serzh Sargsyan's interview.
The interview was not available on Der Spiegel's website yesterday,
but appeared in German today. It has been translated below by News.Az.
It is the Armenian president's remarks about Nagorno-Karabakh that
prompted a response from the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry.
Der Spiegel's Benjamin Bidder said to Serzh Sargsyan: 'Turkey
wants to make the opening of the border dependent on progress in
the Nagorno-Karabakh issue. Armenia waged a war for this territory,
which has been claimed by Azerbaijan since the collapse of the Soviet
Union but is inhabited mainly by Christian Armenians.'
'Turkey always wants concessions from our side, but this is
impossible,' Sargsyan replied. 'The vital issue is the realization of
the right to self-determination of the people of Nagorno-Karabakh. If
Azerbaijan were to recognize the independence of Nagorno-Karabakh, I
think the issue could be solved in a matter of hours. Unfortunately,
it looks as though Azerbaijan wants a military solution to the
problem. The Azerbaijanis still believe that they can connect
Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan. This would mean, however, that in a
short time it would become impossible for the Armenian population to
remain in Nagorno-Karabakh.'
'Of course not,' Sargsyan said when asked whether comprehensive
autonomy would be enough for Nagorno-Karabakh. 'Giving Karabakh
back to Azerbaijan would lead in a short time to the expulsion of
the Armenian people. Nagorno-Karabakh was never part of independent
Azerbaijan. The region was linked to Azerbaijan for the first time in
1923 by decision of the Caucasus Buro of the Communist Party under
pressure from Stalin. If Karabakh were to be part of Azerbaijan,
one would at the very least have to restore the Soviet Union. I don't
believe that anyone could seriously do that.'
Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry spokesman Elkhan Polukhov on Monday
described as 'unfounded' Sargsyan's accusations that the Armenian
people would be expelled. 'Mr Sargsyan seems not to know that
Azerbaijan will never drive out its population because of their
ethnicity,' Polukhov told journalists in Baku. 'Azerbaijan has never
refused to grant the Armenians and Azerbaijanis of Nagono-Karabakh the
right to self-determination according to international legal norms
within the framework of the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan,'
he said.
Asked by Der Spiegel what kind of solution he proposed, Sargsyan said:
'Why could the states of former Yugoslavia achieve independence?
Shouldn't Karabakh have much the same right - is it only because
Azerbaijan has raw materials like oil and gas and Turkey as a patron?
We don't consider this fair.'
Polukhov responded that Yugoslavia, like the USSR, had collapsed
due to historical events and pointed out that Armenia had gained
its independence at that time. 'It is at the very least, therefore,
politically incorrect to draw parallels between Azerbaijan and
Yugoslavia,' Polukhov said.
Rapprochement with Turkey
Asked whether he regretted the invitation to Turkish President Abdullah
Gul to watch the Turkish football team play in Yerevan last September,
Sargsyan replied, 'No, I am convinced that there is no alternative
to cooperation between Turks and Armenians. We want to break through
the centuries of enmity. We were clear from the beginning that this
would be no easy process.'
'Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in his recent
interview with Der Spiegel that "there can be no talk of genocide",'
the weekly said. 'Why can your neighbour not come to terms with its
own past?'
'Mr Erdogan also said that Turks were not capable of committing
genocide, and that Turkish history was "as bright as the sun",'
Sargsyan replied. 'The Turks are opposed to classifying the massacre
as genocide. However, Ankara is not the one to decide on this issue.
However great Turkish opposition may be, it's not a question for
Ankara to decide.'
Asked about Erdogan's recent threat to deport illegal Armenian migrants
from Turkey, Sargsyan said, 'Such unacceptable statements stir my
people's memories of the genocide. Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise
me, coming from a Turkish politician. We don't have to go back very far
in history to find similar statements. In 1988 similar voices could
be heard in today's Azerbaijan. This led to pogroms in Azerbaijani
towns such as Sumgayit and Baku and the deaths of dozens of Armenians.'
'The world must respond resolutely,' Sargsyan said, when asked
how the international community should react. 'America, Europe,
as well as Germany, all those countries that have been involved
in the Armenian-Turkish rapprochement process, should openly state
their position. Had all the states recognized the genocide by now,
the Turks wouldn't talk that way. It is, however, a source of hope
that many young people in Turkey stood up against that statement. A
new generation is growing up in Turkey and the political leadership
of that country has to reckon with its opinion.'
Asked why he was against the creation of a bilateral commission of
historians to investigate the genocide claims, Sarsgyan said: 'How
can such a commission work objectively if in Turkey using the term
genocide leads to persecution and criminal charges? Ankara is just
trying to delay decisions. When foreign parliaments or governments
ask Turkey to recognize the genocide, they will be told: "First wait
for the outcome of the commission." Creating such a body would mean
casting doubt on the fact of the genocide perpetrated against our
people. We are not prepared for this. A commission would be meaningful
if Turkey acknowledged its guilt. In that case scholars could study
jointly the causes of the tragedy.'
'The genocide took place 95 years ago. Why is its recognition so
important for Armenia?,' Der Spiegel asked.
'It is a matter of historical justice and our national security. The
best way to prevent the repetition of such an atrocity is to condemn
it clearly,' Sargsyan said.
Asked whether Armenia would like to have Mount Ararat, the symbol
of Armenia, back, Sargsyan said, 'Nobody can take Ararat away from
us, we keep it in our hearts. Wherever in the world Armenians live,
you will find the image of Ararat in their homes. I am sure that the
time will come when Ararat will no longer be a symbol of division
between our peoples but a sign of understanding. However, I would
like to clarify the following: no representative of Armenia has ever
made any territorial claims on Turkey. This is what the Turks assume,
maybe because of a guilty conscience?'
'We do not link opening the border with recognition of the genocide; it
is not our fault if rapprochement is foundering,' Sargsyan said, when
asked whether it wouldn't be better to open the border than quarrel.
EU
Asked whether European Union membership was a goal for Armenia,
Sargsyan said, 'European values are attractive to us. That's why we
are now reforming our administration on the European model, of course.
We know full well that if we want to be a full member of a system,
we must solve the problems. It doesn't depend on us how long the
process will take, but on the European Union.
Iran
Asked his opinion on the international community's conflict with
Tehran, Sargsyan said: 'We view this with concern. Iran is one of
only two countries that connect us with the outside world. Everyone in
Armenia knows that if Iran had not opened its border during the war,
it would have led to restrictions in supplies to our towns. It was the
same during the five-day war of 2008, when the rail link via Georgia
was cut off. We are building a pipeline and a rail link together with
Iran just now.
Der Spiegel
news.az
April 6 2010
Azerbaijan
Serzh Sargsyan German weekly Der Spiegel has published on its website
an interview with the Armenian president that has already provoked
a response from Baku.
Russian versions of the interview appeared yesterday on Armenian
websites. The Armenian president's spokesman, Armen Arzumanyan,
told Tert.Am on Monday that Der Spiegel had promised to correct what
he described as inaccuracies in the weekly's published version of
President Serzh Sargsyan's interview.
The interview was not available on Der Spiegel's website yesterday,
but appeared in German today. It has been translated below by News.Az.
It is the Armenian president's remarks about Nagorno-Karabakh that
prompted a response from the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry.
Der Spiegel's Benjamin Bidder said to Serzh Sargsyan: 'Turkey
wants to make the opening of the border dependent on progress in
the Nagorno-Karabakh issue. Armenia waged a war for this territory,
which has been claimed by Azerbaijan since the collapse of the Soviet
Union but is inhabited mainly by Christian Armenians.'
'Turkey always wants concessions from our side, but this is
impossible,' Sargsyan replied. 'The vital issue is the realization of
the right to self-determination of the people of Nagorno-Karabakh. If
Azerbaijan were to recognize the independence of Nagorno-Karabakh, I
think the issue could be solved in a matter of hours. Unfortunately,
it looks as though Azerbaijan wants a military solution to the
problem. The Azerbaijanis still believe that they can connect
Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan. This would mean, however, that in a
short time it would become impossible for the Armenian population to
remain in Nagorno-Karabakh.'
'Of course not,' Sargsyan said when asked whether comprehensive
autonomy would be enough for Nagorno-Karabakh. 'Giving Karabakh
back to Azerbaijan would lead in a short time to the expulsion of
the Armenian people. Nagorno-Karabakh was never part of independent
Azerbaijan. The region was linked to Azerbaijan for the first time in
1923 by decision of the Caucasus Buro of the Communist Party under
pressure from Stalin. If Karabakh were to be part of Azerbaijan,
one would at the very least have to restore the Soviet Union. I don't
believe that anyone could seriously do that.'
Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry spokesman Elkhan Polukhov on Monday
described as 'unfounded' Sargsyan's accusations that the Armenian
people would be expelled. 'Mr Sargsyan seems not to know that
Azerbaijan will never drive out its population because of their
ethnicity,' Polukhov told journalists in Baku. 'Azerbaijan has never
refused to grant the Armenians and Azerbaijanis of Nagono-Karabakh the
right to self-determination according to international legal norms
within the framework of the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan,'
he said.
Asked by Der Spiegel what kind of solution he proposed, Sargsyan said:
'Why could the states of former Yugoslavia achieve independence?
Shouldn't Karabakh have much the same right - is it only because
Azerbaijan has raw materials like oil and gas and Turkey as a patron?
We don't consider this fair.'
Polukhov responded that Yugoslavia, like the USSR, had collapsed
due to historical events and pointed out that Armenia had gained
its independence at that time. 'It is at the very least, therefore,
politically incorrect to draw parallels between Azerbaijan and
Yugoslavia,' Polukhov said.
Rapprochement with Turkey
Asked whether he regretted the invitation to Turkish President Abdullah
Gul to watch the Turkish football team play in Yerevan last September,
Sargsyan replied, 'No, I am convinced that there is no alternative
to cooperation between Turks and Armenians. We want to break through
the centuries of enmity. We were clear from the beginning that this
would be no easy process.'
'Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in his recent
interview with Der Spiegel that "there can be no talk of genocide",'
the weekly said. 'Why can your neighbour not come to terms with its
own past?'
'Mr Erdogan also said that Turks were not capable of committing
genocide, and that Turkish history was "as bright as the sun",'
Sargsyan replied. 'The Turks are opposed to classifying the massacre
as genocide. However, Ankara is not the one to decide on this issue.
However great Turkish opposition may be, it's not a question for
Ankara to decide.'
Asked about Erdogan's recent threat to deport illegal Armenian migrants
from Turkey, Sargsyan said, 'Such unacceptable statements stir my
people's memories of the genocide. Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise
me, coming from a Turkish politician. We don't have to go back very far
in history to find similar statements. In 1988 similar voices could
be heard in today's Azerbaijan. This led to pogroms in Azerbaijani
towns such as Sumgayit and Baku and the deaths of dozens of Armenians.'
'The world must respond resolutely,' Sargsyan said, when asked
how the international community should react. 'America, Europe,
as well as Germany, all those countries that have been involved
in the Armenian-Turkish rapprochement process, should openly state
their position. Had all the states recognized the genocide by now,
the Turks wouldn't talk that way. It is, however, a source of hope
that many young people in Turkey stood up against that statement. A
new generation is growing up in Turkey and the political leadership
of that country has to reckon with its opinion.'
Asked why he was against the creation of a bilateral commission of
historians to investigate the genocide claims, Sarsgyan said: 'How
can such a commission work objectively if in Turkey using the term
genocide leads to persecution and criminal charges? Ankara is just
trying to delay decisions. When foreign parliaments or governments
ask Turkey to recognize the genocide, they will be told: "First wait
for the outcome of the commission." Creating such a body would mean
casting doubt on the fact of the genocide perpetrated against our
people. We are not prepared for this. A commission would be meaningful
if Turkey acknowledged its guilt. In that case scholars could study
jointly the causes of the tragedy.'
'The genocide took place 95 years ago. Why is its recognition so
important for Armenia?,' Der Spiegel asked.
'It is a matter of historical justice and our national security. The
best way to prevent the repetition of such an atrocity is to condemn
it clearly,' Sargsyan said.
Asked whether Armenia would like to have Mount Ararat, the symbol
of Armenia, back, Sargsyan said, 'Nobody can take Ararat away from
us, we keep it in our hearts. Wherever in the world Armenians live,
you will find the image of Ararat in their homes. I am sure that the
time will come when Ararat will no longer be a symbol of division
between our peoples but a sign of understanding. However, I would
like to clarify the following: no representative of Armenia has ever
made any territorial claims on Turkey. This is what the Turks assume,
maybe because of a guilty conscience?'
'We do not link opening the border with recognition of the genocide; it
is not our fault if rapprochement is foundering,' Sargsyan said, when
asked whether it wouldn't be better to open the border than quarrel.
EU
Asked whether European Union membership was a goal for Armenia,
Sargsyan said, 'European values are attractive to us. That's why we
are now reforming our administration on the European model, of course.
We know full well that if we want to be a full member of a system,
we must solve the problems. It doesn't depend on us how long the
process will take, but on the European Union.
Iran
Asked his opinion on the international community's conflict with
Tehran, Sargsyan said: 'We view this with concern. Iran is one of
only two countries that connect us with the outside world. Everyone in
Armenia knows that if Iran had not opened its border during the war,
it would have led to restrictions in supplies to our towns. It was the
same during the five-day war of 2008, when the rail link via Georgia
was cut off. We are building a pipeline and a rail link together with
Iran just now.
Der Spiegel