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The New Times (Kigali)
Jan 24 2007
Rwanda: Genocide Will Be Stopped If Perpetrators Are Punished - Wallis
INTERVIEW
Gaaki Kigambo & George Kagame
Kigali
Andrew Wallis is the author of Silent Accomplice, The Untold Story of
The Role of France in the Rwandan Genocide, a new book detailed in
research and unwavering in pointing out the role of the French in the
Rwandan Genocide.
He was recently in Rwanda to continue his research into the truth
behind why the French were here and what their aims and objectives
were and how these aims impacted on the Rwandan people. The New Times
GAAKI KIGAMBO and GEORGE KAGAME caught up with him for an interview.
Below are the excerpts.
TNT: Your book has been published 12 years after the genocide and
behind so many others books about Rwanda. Don't you think it's a
little bit too late?
AW: You would hope that after 12 years lessons have been learned by
some of the western powers but as the current events in Darfur prove
genocide is still very much a reality and looking at the French
involvement in other Francophone countries and their heavy support
for dictators with appalling human rights records France seems to
have learnt very little. In fact it still denies heavily its
responsibility of what happened in Rwanda where some nations like
Belgium have made attempts to apologise. It's still shocking 12 years
they are yet to admit in any way at all what actually they were doing
here and how their policies implicated in allowing the genocide to
happen.
TNT: Silent Accomplice has been launched in London and is scheduled
to be launched in the US this week. How has it been received?
AW: There has been shock from those who reviewed the book and people
have read articles in some of the newspapers I've written for. People
who knew very little about the genocide and certainly have no
suspicion at all that one of the five permanent members of the
Security Council could have been heavily involved in arming and
training those responsible for it. So the reaction has been really
absolute shock and almost all editors have taken the view that France
should not be allowed to get away with it and France has serious
questions it needs to ask itself and to come back and attempt in any
way possible to make amends.
TNT: Your book is detailed in research about the role of France in
the genocide unwavering in accusing France of aiding and abetting the
genocide. What has been the French response ever since the book came
out?
AW: There's certainly been unofficial response; their ambassador in
London was very unhappy about the book and the articles in the
newspapers which proceeded it. However, I'm well aware that this book
is in no way meant to be anti-French. I have great regard for the
French nation but its politicians have for 40-50 years trampled
roughshod over the rights of African nations they say they are
serving. I have French friends who are working as hard as I am to
uncover the truth about what their politicians got up to in 1990-94.
Many of those politicians now incidentally are serving time in prison
or have been implicated in various corruption scandals in France
itself.
TNT: The French government passed a law which would penalise anyone
who failed to recognise the 1915 Armenian massacre in Turkey. It has
also acknowledged its folly in deporting Jews to their death back in
the 1950s. Why is it so silent on Rwanda even every voice out of
Rwanda implicates it?
AW: Genocide is a political crime and if it in any way admits its
responsibility here it would damage the French standing in other
African nations and it's after all Africa that's still France feels
makes it a great nation today. So to admit the reality of what
happened in Rwanda would impact on several other francophone
countries. It makes it easy to apologise for its role in deporting
over 100,000 Jews in the Second World War because that was 60 years
ago and most people involved are almost dead. It is also easy to talk
about the Armenian crisis but again that is a political issue and
should be seen in light of France's bad relations with the Turkish
government and it's using that particular issue to knock the Turkish
government out [of the EU]. It's quite another thing to actually
admit something in such recent memory where most of the politicians
involved, apart from Mitterrand himself, are still alive. And for
them to admit that they had a hand in helping to train and arm a
genocide regime is not even something they want to lay in their
consciences. So it is easier to deny it at whatever cost to Rwanda
and its people...
I think after some of the leading players are no longer here it will
be much easier for a French President in 2050 or 2060 to admit the
reality of Rwanda in 1994. But I think while there are so many
strident players in the French military and politicians who are so
stridently anti the present government in Rwanda, it will be
impossible to admit their faults.
TNT: The French-Rwanda relations have soured in the recent months.
None of the western countries has said anything leaving Rwanda to
battle France in a scenario reminiscent of the biblical David and
Goliath epic. Is this another sense of betrayal and abandonment?
AW: In the West, I think that unfortunately Africa is a bit of a lost
continent. Certainly in the UK today Africa is little known about.
When people do find out about it, when it turns up in the news,
people show interest. But it is important that the West puts up its
hands and takes responsibility this is after all the 21st Century we
talk about globalisation and we talk about the world being a smaller
village with telecommunications and satellites maybe that now should
go into politics as well. The West should take the initiative on
this.
TNT: According to your book that the International Criminal Tribunal
for Rwanda (ICTR) operations need viewing. It has handled a few cases
since its inception and some of its judgments leave a lot to be
desired. It has become a source of minting huge sums of money. Are
you suggesting the UN is just trying to be seen to be delivering
justice when actually it has moved on to more serious matters?
AW: Unfortunately, the ICTR is just another institution and like all
institutions it rarely quite manages to hold up to the ideal that it
should be holding up to. It must first of all bring justice to those
who suffered appallingly in 1994. The fact that in many cases
justice, as people would say, has failed. For example, in the very
recent case of Fr Seromba who was convicted of knocking his church on
top of his congregation and killing several thousand people, and he
received a meagre 15 years in prison. There has to be a degree of
thought that the court is bowing to political pressure from outside
countries. In some of the sentencing, sentencing guidelines don't
seem to count for anything; sometimes people [are] getting life other
times getting 10 years for the same crime. So the problem is politics
coming before justice that cannot always make a right outcome.
TNT: Rwanda is in advanced stages of scrapping the death penalty.
Wouldn't it be right for some of the cases in Arusha to be
transferred here since the death penalty has been cited as a
hindrance?
AW: The court's ends it mandate in 2008 so certainly some cases will
now comeback to Rwanda. That's good; they should face justice in the
country before the countrymen and women where they perpetrated their
alleged crimes. For example, last month four alleged genocide
suspects were arrested in London and the chances are now because of
the removal of the death penalty they will come to stand trial in
Rwanda, which is good for everyone. The Rwandan people can see
justice before their own eyes. Most Rwandans do not know what happens
at the court in Arusha. They've never been there. They hear news
reports. In a way justice is denied if you cannot see it happening.
TNT: What is the inspiration of your book?
AW: I was in Rwanda in 1991 just as a tourist going to see the
gorillas and I got fascinated by the country then and indeed fell in
love with the country and its people. Later I went on to do a masters
degree [and] the subject of Rwanda and France relations [came up] and
I think the more I learned about what had happened the more shocked I
was and even more shocked by the fact that there was nothing written
in English about this matter and there was almost complete ignorance
about this matter of injustice. So to me it is a matter of justice
that it is on record what happened. And I think there's alot more
information still to come out on this matter both in France and
people who witnessed what happened in this country. So it's an
ongoing project. Genocide can only be stopped if the perpetrators
cannot get away with it anymore. It is very necessary for western
countries to understand that to arm and train people far away still
implicates them. The fact they cannot see the killing doesn't make
their implication what happened any less.
Jan 24 2007
Rwanda: Genocide Will Be Stopped If Perpetrators Are Punished - Wallis
INTERVIEW
Gaaki Kigambo & George Kagame
Kigali
Andrew Wallis is the author of Silent Accomplice, The Untold Story of
The Role of France in the Rwandan Genocide, a new book detailed in
research and unwavering in pointing out the role of the French in the
Rwandan Genocide.
He was recently in Rwanda to continue his research into the truth
behind why the French were here and what their aims and objectives
were and how these aims impacted on the Rwandan people. The New Times
GAAKI KIGAMBO and GEORGE KAGAME caught up with him for an interview.
Below are the excerpts.
TNT: Your book has been published 12 years after the genocide and
behind so many others books about Rwanda. Don't you think it's a
little bit too late?
AW: You would hope that after 12 years lessons have been learned by
some of the western powers but as the current events in Darfur prove
genocide is still very much a reality and looking at the French
involvement in other Francophone countries and their heavy support
for dictators with appalling human rights records France seems to
have learnt very little. In fact it still denies heavily its
responsibility of what happened in Rwanda where some nations like
Belgium have made attempts to apologise. It's still shocking 12 years
they are yet to admit in any way at all what actually they were doing
here and how their policies implicated in allowing the genocide to
happen.
TNT: Silent Accomplice has been launched in London and is scheduled
to be launched in the US this week. How has it been received?
AW: There has been shock from those who reviewed the book and people
have read articles in some of the newspapers I've written for. People
who knew very little about the genocide and certainly have no
suspicion at all that one of the five permanent members of the
Security Council could have been heavily involved in arming and
training those responsible for it. So the reaction has been really
absolute shock and almost all editors have taken the view that France
should not be allowed to get away with it and France has serious
questions it needs to ask itself and to come back and attempt in any
way possible to make amends.
TNT: Your book is detailed in research about the role of France in
the genocide unwavering in accusing France of aiding and abetting the
genocide. What has been the French response ever since the book came
out?
AW: There's certainly been unofficial response; their ambassador in
London was very unhappy about the book and the articles in the
newspapers which proceeded it. However, I'm well aware that this book
is in no way meant to be anti-French. I have great regard for the
French nation but its politicians have for 40-50 years trampled
roughshod over the rights of African nations they say they are
serving. I have French friends who are working as hard as I am to
uncover the truth about what their politicians got up to in 1990-94.
Many of those politicians now incidentally are serving time in prison
or have been implicated in various corruption scandals in France
itself.
TNT: The French government passed a law which would penalise anyone
who failed to recognise the 1915 Armenian massacre in Turkey. It has
also acknowledged its folly in deporting Jews to their death back in
the 1950s. Why is it so silent on Rwanda even every voice out of
Rwanda implicates it?
AW: Genocide is a political crime and if it in any way admits its
responsibility here it would damage the French standing in other
African nations and it's after all Africa that's still France feels
makes it a great nation today. So to admit the reality of what
happened in Rwanda would impact on several other francophone
countries. It makes it easy to apologise for its role in deporting
over 100,000 Jews in the Second World War because that was 60 years
ago and most people involved are almost dead. It is also easy to talk
about the Armenian crisis but again that is a political issue and
should be seen in light of France's bad relations with the Turkish
government and it's using that particular issue to knock the Turkish
government out [of the EU]. It's quite another thing to actually
admit something in such recent memory where most of the politicians
involved, apart from Mitterrand himself, are still alive. And for
them to admit that they had a hand in helping to train and arm a
genocide regime is not even something they want to lay in their
consciences. So it is easier to deny it at whatever cost to Rwanda
and its people...
I think after some of the leading players are no longer here it will
be much easier for a French President in 2050 or 2060 to admit the
reality of Rwanda in 1994. But I think while there are so many
strident players in the French military and politicians who are so
stridently anti the present government in Rwanda, it will be
impossible to admit their faults.
TNT: The French-Rwanda relations have soured in the recent months.
None of the western countries has said anything leaving Rwanda to
battle France in a scenario reminiscent of the biblical David and
Goliath epic. Is this another sense of betrayal and abandonment?
AW: In the West, I think that unfortunately Africa is a bit of a lost
continent. Certainly in the UK today Africa is little known about.
When people do find out about it, when it turns up in the news,
people show interest. But it is important that the West puts up its
hands and takes responsibility this is after all the 21st Century we
talk about globalisation and we talk about the world being a smaller
village with telecommunications and satellites maybe that now should
go into politics as well. The West should take the initiative on
this.
TNT: According to your book that the International Criminal Tribunal
for Rwanda (ICTR) operations need viewing. It has handled a few cases
since its inception and some of its judgments leave a lot to be
desired. It has become a source of minting huge sums of money. Are
you suggesting the UN is just trying to be seen to be delivering
justice when actually it has moved on to more serious matters?
AW: Unfortunately, the ICTR is just another institution and like all
institutions it rarely quite manages to hold up to the ideal that it
should be holding up to. It must first of all bring justice to those
who suffered appallingly in 1994. The fact that in many cases
justice, as people would say, has failed. For example, in the very
recent case of Fr Seromba who was convicted of knocking his church on
top of his congregation and killing several thousand people, and he
received a meagre 15 years in prison. There has to be a degree of
thought that the court is bowing to political pressure from outside
countries. In some of the sentencing, sentencing guidelines don't
seem to count for anything; sometimes people [are] getting life other
times getting 10 years for the same crime. So the problem is politics
coming before justice that cannot always make a right outcome.
TNT: Rwanda is in advanced stages of scrapping the death penalty.
Wouldn't it be right for some of the cases in Arusha to be
transferred here since the death penalty has been cited as a
hindrance?
AW: The court's ends it mandate in 2008 so certainly some cases will
now comeback to Rwanda. That's good; they should face justice in the
country before the countrymen and women where they perpetrated their
alleged crimes. For example, last month four alleged genocide
suspects were arrested in London and the chances are now because of
the removal of the death penalty they will come to stand trial in
Rwanda, which is good for everyone. The Rwandan people can see
justice before their own eyes. Most Rwandans do not know what happens
at the court in Arusha. They've never been there. They hear news
reports. In a way justice is denied if you cannot see it happening.
TNT: What is the inspiration of your book?
AW: I was in Rwanda in 1991 just as a tourist going to see the
gorillas and I got fascinated by the country then and indeed fell in
love with the country and its people. Later I went on to do a masters
degree [and] the subject of Rwanda and France relations [came up] and
I think the more I learned about what had happened the more shocked I
was and even more shocked by the fact that there was nothing written
in English about this matter and there was almost complete ignorance
about this matter of injustice. So to me it is a matter of justice
that it is on record what happened. And I think there's alot more
information still to come out on this matter both in France and
people who witnessed what happened in this country. So it's an
ongoing project. Genocide can only be stopped if the perpetrators
cannot get away with it anymore. It is very necessary for western
countries to understand that to arm and train people far away still
implicates them. The fact they cannot see the killing doesn't make
their implication what happened any less.