Tweet
KURDISH LEADER URGES DIALOGUE, TURKEY AS COUNTRY OF ALL ITS NATIONS
Vatan Daily, Turkey
Oct 1 2007
[Report of interview by Mine Senokackli with DTP member Sirri Sakik,
date and location not given: "If 1921 Constitution is Taken as
Reference Then Kurdish Problem Will be Solved."]
Key DTP [Democratic Society Party] figure Sirri Sakik is working to
build a bridge of peace rather than create tension. Many members of
his family have been killed but he is not keeping score. In order to
stop one more being lost he continually says, "We cannot solve this
problem alone; we must partner up." This goes for Parliament and the
country. Fine, but how?
To begin with, by accepting in the Constitution that all cultures
can express themselves democratically. Sakik says this is what
the 1921 Constitution says and that this will solve a significant
proportion of the problems. What next? Then everybody be they MHP
[Nationalist Action Party], AKP [Justice and Development Party], CHP
[Republican People's Party] or DTP will have to make sacrifices to
keep our children alive rather than keep score!
Since the establishment of the Kurdish political movement inside...
One of his younger brothers is Semdin Sakik of the PKK leadership.
Many of his relatives have been killed, most in mystery murders.
Furthermore, some were not shot but burned to death when their villages
were torched! They found one of his elder brothers, Abdulsamet Sakik,
with a bullet in the back of his neck. When I asked who did it he
looked at me as if I came from outer space: "Are you not from this
country? The security forces did it!" I know a few things but who can
find the exact truth in this country! Say what you like but only the
survivors know exactly what happened. And of course you interpret it
according to the side you are on.
MHP Must Make Sacrifices
Let us move on. While his younger brother was in the mountains of
Erzurum his elder brother's son was a soldier in Erzurum. In other
words there was the possibility of the nephew shooting his uncle or
being shot on his uncle's orders! You try to understand what he was
going through. You need to be pretty empathic! Despite everything he
has lived through Sirri Sakik is one of the most rational of the DTP
representatives. He is working to build a bridge of peace rather than
create tension. In a climate in which everybody says whatever comes
to mind he includes the word "partnership" in every sentence.
Partnership with whom? According to him, with the founding elements
of the Turkish Republic -the Turks, the Kurds, the Circassians,
the Laz; with everybody who fought shoulder to shoulder in the Was
of Independence. He says this is precisely why they are in Parliament.
For what? In order to establish a dialogue and to bring those in the
mountains off them. "We need to partner up; first in Parliament and
then nationwide. Just as the AKP cannot fix the headscarf problem by
itself so the DTP cannot fix the Kurdish problem by itself. If this
problem is to be solved then the MHP, the CHP and the AKP, which took
a lot of Kurdish votes, must make self sacrifices," says Sakik.
The Soldiers Are Our Brothers
He says he wants to build a bridge of peace. I tell him, "All well and
good but some of your colleagues are saying things that add fuel to
the fire." He is a little uneasy. "We have suffered a lot. You have
to understand. If our brothers are in the mountains are we no longer
to call them brothers? Every home in the region has somebody who is
either in the mountains or in prison, or in the ground." I am still
trying to create empathy. He continues: "I went to a funeral once. Just
20 paces away there was a Turkish flag flying over a grave. It was a
martyr's grave. Right next to it was a PKK guerilla's grave. One says
'Vatan' while one says 'Welat.' [Motherland] They both speak different
languages but are buried in the same soil."
Sakik says: "These lands were watered with the blood of our children.
We do not want any more blood to flow." I believe he is being
sincere. So, how can the bloodshed be stopped? He thinks by going
back to the tolerance and War of Independence spirit that existed
86 years ago. By clearly stating in the new Constitution that all
the peoples who died for this land -the founders according to the
1921 Constitution meaning the Kurds and the Circassians and the Laz
-are again the founding elements. In other words, by embracing all
the peoples.
AKP Talks About More Democracy But Does The Opposite!
"For years now every political party has said, 'The PKK is a terrorist
organization.' Has the problem been solved? No, it has not."
[Senocakli] How will the southeast problem be solved?
[Sakik] We need to place our hands on our consciences and look at the
region. Many intellectuals and politicians refrain even from speaking
about a solution to the problem. We all feel as timid as pigeons, to
paraphrase Hrant Dink. Fears are being pushed all the time in this
country. To what degree can intellectuals and politicians express
their ideas in a country shrouded by fear? This climate of fear needs
to be dispelled right away. Politics is the art of fixing problems.
If you cannot fix the problems then you quit and leave. The AKP has a
lot of popular support so it should be able to fix the problems bravely
and without fear. But I cannot say that the AKP is brave here. They are
very afraid. The more they are afraid the more they lash out at others.
[Senocakli] Who are the Others?
[Sakik] Whenever they are under pressure they turn around and put
pressure on us. The other day Dengir Mir Firat, a person I care for
a lot, said to us quite undeservedly, "Go to the mountains." Why?
Because they are in a corner as the debates over the new constitution
are going on. Who else could have been the target? We are. They say
that rivers make loops at the weakest stretches of land. Turkey's
weakest point is the Kurdish problem. That is why it is always used to
make politics. What does he mean by "Let them go to the mountains?" We
want to bring those in the mountains off them. We want to build a
bridge, establish a dialogue.
[Senocakli] So how are you going to build this bridge?
[Sakik] Our efforts alone will not be enough to fix Turkey's
fundamental problems. Everybody who believes in democracy and freedom
should get together. Whoever says the most that they believe in
democracy and freedom should first...
[Senocakli] But the AKP is advocating this right now...
[Sakik] Not in practice, though.
[Senocakli] You mean that when they advocate democracy they actually
do the opposite?
[Sakik] The prime minister said in America: "The Kurds have the right
to education in their own language. We put that in the Constitution."
Nothing of the sort. A few days before in Parliament he says,
"One flag, one nation, one motherland." Yes. Nobody is objecting to a
single flag, a unitary structure and a single motherland. But it is not
just the Turks who live here. Problems cannot be solved by ignoring
the other peoples and creating only one single nation. That is the
source of all our problems. The prime minister says in Diyarbakir:
"I recognize the Kurdish reality. We are going to take steps to solve
the Kurdish problem." But when he gets back to Ankara he switches
to Ankara mode and says, "One nation." But we are not one nation,
and the prime minister knows this. Everybody can see that they are
being two-faced. We can see how democrat they are when they go to the
United States or Europe, and exactly how democrat they are when they
return. The AKP has no road map for the democratization of Turkey or
the fixing of the Kurdish problem. None of this would be happening
if such a road map existed. We need to partner up in order to address
Turkey's fundamental problems.
[Senocakli] You are also expected to take a step in calling the PKK
a terrorist organization. You are not saying this?
[Sakik] Turkey must break this mould. The late Turgut Ozal used to
say the same thing. But he later called us. "If you were to say
this what would be left? Would you have any influence with them
afterwards?" he said. For many years now every political party in
Turkey has called the PKK a terrorist organization. Has the problem
been solved? It has not. Turkey must break this mould. Problems
are not solved through hostile rhetoric. At this point the prime
minister is trying to repeat the past. We really must partner up
if we are to solve the problem. Just as the prime minister cannot
solve the headscarf problem by himself so we cannot fix the Kurdish
problem alone either. We are always ready to take a step. We came to
Parliament in order to establish dialogue and open up the clenched
fists. But we cannot do this alone. We need to act together. We think
that the MHP, the CHP and in particular the AKP need to make a lot
of self sacrifice. Many people in the region voted for the AKP to get
these problems fixed. The people are telling it how it is: "Fix this
problem. We no longer want fighting or violence." There are serious
expectations of the AKP here. It goes without saying that if the AKP
makes good on these expectations then we shall all applaud it. But
right now as far as we can tell they are not in a position to respond
to these expectations because they do not work in partnership with
anyone else. There is no partnership over the new constitution even.
On the contrary, they are using the political power they have like
a ruthless weapon.
One Says Vatan, One Says Welat... One Soldier, One PKK... Both Buried
In The Same Soil
[Senocakli] Which articles of the constitution are problematic and
need to be changed in your opinion?
[Sakik] We want a constitution that embraces all the peoples. To
say, "The Turkish Republic Constitution accepts that all cultures
may express themselves democratically" that will large solve our
problems. I am not saying that the constitution say only Turks
and Kurds, but all the peoples. That is how it was in the 1921
Constitution, in Mustafa Kemal's Constitution. It says, "The true
owners of this country are the Turks and the Kurds." Mustafa Kemal
refers to Kurdish deputies as Kurdistan deputies and to Laz deputies
as Lazistan deputies. But the policies of denial and destruction
begin in 1924 and continue today. We want the cultures of all the
peoples not just the Kurds to be given constitutional assurances.
[Senocakli] But apart from the Kurds the other people do not have
such demands.
[Sakik] This is how it should be if we really believe in democracy,
freedom and rule of law. Yes, the Kurds and the Turks are in the
majority; let us defend their rights. But there are also non-Muslims
here, Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Circassians and Laz. They may not
want these things today but they might want them later on. It is my
moral and conscientious responsibility to give them assurances, too. A
solution needs to be formulated that enables the religion and culture
of all the peoples to develop. I should be able to express my identity
freely and live. My identity should not be a hindrance for me...
[Senocakli] What exactly would make you happy?
[Sakik] Honestly, the Constitution should say unequivocally that it
embraces all the peoples living in Turkey. If it says that we can
breathe easily.
If Turgut Ozal had not died the PKK would have laid down its arms!
[Senocakli] You said that Ozal said, "If you call the PKK a terrorist
organization you will lose all your influence with it." Is that true?
[Sakik] Yes.
[Senocakli] Do you really have influence over the PKK or is it the
other way round?
[Sakik] Ozal called us in 1993 and sent us to Damascus to meet with
Ocalan. He had a very important project and he wanted to bring that
project to life. If we had done what Ozal told us to on the first day
and we had said this, there is no way we could have gone to Damascus.
[Senocakli] What was this Damascus project?
[Sakik] There was a ceasefire in effect. Ozal sent us to Damascus in
order to prolong the ceasefire. We went and the meeting took place.
The ceasefire was extended. We were just about to bring that project
to life when Ozal dies. There are still suspicions surrounding Ozal's
death. That veil of fog has not been lifted. Why did he die just when
those in the mountains were about to surrender their arms?
Unfortunately, that is how it is in our country. But we did learn one
thing. Death does not bring life. We saw that oppression and violence
cannot solve this problem.
[Senocakli] We saw that but soldiers are still being martyred every
day...
[Sakik] They should die. That is our cry. Nobody should die. Nobody's
nose should bleed even. If this country is homeland for all of us,
if we are to establish peace and democracy and become a happy family
then the onus is on all of us. Not just on the DTP. How do we disarm
the armed forces? How do we reinstate the PKK immediately back into
life? If the PKK really does want to solve the problem within a
unitary structure then there is no need to alienate. Every home in
the region has somebody who is in the mountains, in prison or in the
ground. That is our reality. How are we to ignore this? If your child
were in the mountains what would you do?
[Senocakli] The DP [Democrat Party] candidate for Diyarbakir Ms
Suna Kepoglu said: "Turkey's current agenda is the grief of bereaved
parents! The state must stand up for its citizens. Even if they go
into the mountains."
[Sakik] The people of the region are experiencing this to the letter.
It is a pity that these lands have been watered with blood ever since
Byzantium. We are fed up with bloodshed. It has to stop.
[Senocakli] You are expected to take the first step, though...
[Sakik] That is what we are doing. Right from day one we have been
acting responsibly with regard to solving the problem.
[Senocakli] So you think. But Sebahat Tuncel gets out of prison and
enters Parliament saying, "The PKK are our brothers" and hurts the
30,000 martyrs families.
[Sakik] The soldiers are our children and brothers, too. But this
is a reality. If I have a brother in the mountains I cannot say, "He
is not my brother"! Go and research it. Every household has three to
five people in the mountains and two to three people in prison. These
people have families who vote. I have lost dozens of people from
my family. Just like the poet said, "Those calling the land home in
different languages will still end up being buried in the same land."
During the elections I went to a funeral in Mus. We went to the
cemetery. I saw a flag flying over one grave. I asked and they told
me it was the grave of a soldier. Just 20 paces away was the grave of
a PKK militant. Just side by side really. One says "Vatan" the other
says "Welat." But they are both buried in the same soil. That is how
close we are to one another.
[Senocakli] Welat?
[Sakik] Kurdish for Vatan [Motherland or Homeland]
BOTh the dead soldier and the dead PKK member are in the same soil,
buried next to one another. This is all our motherland, and we feel
the pain.
My Younger Brother In The Mountains While My Nephew Was A Soldier!
There are families in the east with some members in the mountains
while other members are doing their military service. In 1995 my
younger brother Semdin Sakik was in the mountains. My nephew was a
soldier in Erzurum. They were both in the same region. One my elder
brother's son. The other my younger brother. One PKK, one a soldier.
Just imagine what the families are going through there! They could
encounter one another at any time. They could put bullets into one
another. That is the reality of our country.
Sirri Sakik believes that the bloodshed can be stopped. He says that
in order to do this the state has to take two steps.
The first step is to mention all peoples in the Constitution. The
second is a general amnesty that will silence all the guns. Fine,
but if an amnesty is issued will the PKK really lay down their arms?
Sakik believes sincerely that they will. "All that is needed is for
a climate to be created in which the Kurdish problem can be debated
at length."
[Senocakli] You say you do not want separation but maps of Kurdistan
being distributed by America are out there for all to see. Kurds and
Turks living together. Our daughter-in-law is a Kurd. Will I need a
visa in order to visit my nephew and niece in Mus?
[Sakik] Sorry, but it appears that you do not live in this country.
No, there will be nothing of the kind. We all own this homeland.
Where are we to need a visa for? Istanbul is not a Kurdish city but
3-4 million Kurds live there. They have all gone there from one part
of Anatolia or another, acquired property and become Istanbullians.
What power can uproot them and send them back? There are millions of
Kurds living all over Turkey. All share one demand -democracy. The
Kurds have no demands for a state but do have demands for democracy.
Why such fear over the demand for democracy? The Kurds are talking
about a common homeland. "This is our motherland but we want
constitutional assurances. We want to express ourselves," is what
they are saying. No need to fear this. This is our country's rich
diversity. To say you will need a passport to go somewhere is and
unjust comment.
We Are Not Demanding A State, But Democracy!
[Senocakli] You know that people have this fear, but...
[Sakik] Nobody in Turkey should fear this, least of all the
politicians. They should present their leadership qualities to the
people through peace not war. But we turn and see that all politicians
from Demirel to Erdogan talk about the Kurdish reality when they go
to Kurdish areas but when the return to Ankara the Ankara reality
obscures the Kurdish reality. The politicians are very guilty in this.
[Senocakli] You say I am doing you an injustice but did not Leyla
Zana step up and say, "We have three leaders: Barzani, Talabani and
Ocalan"? How can I not think that you want a separate state?
[Sakik] What Ms Zana said concerns only her. I do not want to talk
about her. But we all know where the Kurds stand and what there
demands are here. The Kurds have been unable to send representatives
to Parliament because of legal obstacles for many years. Even now
we do not receive Treasury funding. There is oppression. There is
violence. In the region all the other parties gang up on us. Despite
all this we have been able to send 22 deputies to Parliament, which
is an important message. We want to fix our problems in Ankara within
unity and integrity.
[Senocakli] So, there are problems even among yourselves?
[Sakik] Could be. Does everybody in Turkey think in unison? No. There
are tons of different political parties and different personalities.
[Senocakli] Do you not think that the first of all the Kurds need to
be in unison, in order to send a clearer message to Ankara?
[Sakik] I do not know. But the messages at this point are clear. The
project reflected in Parliament on 22 July and spearheaded by the DTP
is clear for all to see. But nobody sees it. This person said this
or that. They can say what they like. That is their right. Everybody
should be able to express their views freely. That is what it means
to be a democracy. Therefore, nobody should be afraid just because
one person stands up and voices such ideas.
[Senocakli] But Zana is an important figure within your movement.
That is why what she says carries weight.
[Sakik] We are fighting for such modern concepts as law, justice and
human rights to come to life. I mean, bottomless and discriminatory
concepts are not what we are about. We want real democracy to come
to life both in Istanbul and Sirnak. We want the climate of violence
and bloodshed to end immediately. We think that the armed forces
should be disarmed immediately and that only together can we bring
this about. What somebody else says if of no concern to me. But we
in the DTP think like this.
[Senocakli] So, what about Diyarbakir Mayor Osman Baydemir saying,
"Every bomb dropped on Kirkuk is a bomb dropped on Diyarbakir." What
do you say to this? Is the DTP throwing its lot in with northern Iraq
or with Turkey? Who do you favour?
[Sakik] Those questions are unfair. Our face is towards Istanbul,
towards Ankara. Why Istanbul? Because Istanbul is Turkey's gateway
to Europe. Why Ankara? Because Ankara is a sign of our faith in
parliamentary democracy. We want to solve our problems here.
Everything else falls outside us. We have no business there. We
have blood and genetic ties to the people there but we have a strong
emotional bond with the people of Turkey. I think this emotional bond
is the most sacred of bonds. We will do whatever this bond requires.
I believe that all DTP members think the same way. We are a Turkey
party. We are working hard to become more a part of Turkey.
Is Not Izmir A CHP Fortress?
[Senocakli] So why are such statements being made then? Some Kurdish
intellectuals are putting it down to Baydemir's inexperience. What
do you think?
[Sakik] Izmir is a fortress for the CHP, is it not? Konya is a
fortress for another line of thought, yes? When these are mentioned
nothing happens. But when the prime minister says, "I particularly want
Diyarbakir" the Mayor of Diyarbakir says, "No; this is my fortress and
I will not yield it" all hell breaks loose. Why is there no empathy
between us on this? I mean would you give up the place you are in if
somebody wants it? No. You should not be interpreting this differently.
The Reason For The 10 Per cent Voting Threshold Is Us. Is That Any
Kind Of Fraternity?
[Senocakli] What can Ankara do to make the PKK give up its weapons?
[Sakik] If a general amnesty is issued then the PKk will give up
its weapons.
[Senocakli] Does that general amnesty include Ocalan?
[Sakik] Of course without the grounds being prepared first it sounds
scary to say this right now. But, unfortunately, some realities in
Turkey are being accepted with much difficulty. The Kurdish reality is
being accepted only after tens of thousands of people died. Turkey is
on a fault line. But we only began to accept that reality on 17 August
when that earthquake killed 20,000 people and we paid a heavy price.
[Senocakli] But there are 30,000 martyrs families in this country...
[Sakik] We know. It is difficult to dress the wounds. But one must
not think one-sided. Our children also go and do their compulsory
military service. There are a lot of dead Kurdish children among
those dead soldiers. It is not just the children of Turks who are
dying but everybody's children. That is our reality. That is why
the idea of separation is incompatible with our country's lay of the
land. We know the grief of the soldiers' families. But on the other
hand there are 30-40,000 dead people and 20,000 mystery murders. What
about their pain? But we must fix the problem without aggravating that
grief. We must make a reckoning. Have we not sinned at all against
these people? Are people taking up arms and going to the mountains
because they are mad? What happened to make everybody risk death? There
is no empathy in this matter in Turkey. That is what is missing?
[Senocakli] One is obliged to do military service. What about the
other?
[Sakik] Alright, let us put the guerrillas aside. What about the
mystery murders. Unarmed and defenceless people in the region have
been murdered. My elder brother was a mystery murder victim. They
killed him in Antep with a bullet to the back of his neck. We all
have wounds. But you cannot bring about peace by keeping score. "How
can we dress these wounds? How can we come up with a peace project?"
These are the things we should be discussing.
There are tears on both sides. There is increasing pain on both
sides. We have to soothe this pain. You cannot solve the problem by
saying, "This many people died here." If the policy of oppression,
denial and destruction followed to date were correct then today there
would be no AKP and we would not be in Parliament. This means that
this policy is wrong.
[Senocakli] What do you mean?
If your policies regarding reactionaryism were correct the AKP ought
not to be in power today. But society does not approve of those
policies. These fears have been pushed ever since the Republic was
founded. At one time the fear was looming communism. Look at the
price people paid for that. Gallows were built. Age did not matter.
They were taken, allowed to grow older and then executed. They hanged
people who had never touched a gun. We all suffered so much. Then came
the Alevi-Sunni conflict. Then the fear that the country was going
to break up and become partitioned. Then the reactionary fear came
along. We have to learn to defeat our fears. We saw prior to the 22
July elections how the masses poured into the streets spearheaded by
certain institutions. But this hype never works. It cannot obstruct
the people's will. The AKP got 47 per cent.
They never changed the elections law for many years. The reason is
us, the Kurds. We are citizens of this country. We want to solve
our problems in Ankara. But we are the reason for the 10 per cent
threshold. Is that any kind of democracy, any kind of fraternity?
This is enough is it not to show what kind of discriminatory picture
there is. That is why the notion that the Kurds want to partition
the country is unfair and uncompassionate.
Most Sincere Photograph With His Son
Sirri Sakik has three sons: Cenk, Heval and Sedar. Heval means
friend. Sedar means three trees. Sakik Sirri came to the interview
with his son Sedar, who is studying in the Communications Department
of Kultur University. I asked for a photograph of him and his son.
They stood side by side. I told them, "Stand like this." Mr Sakik
spoke knowing that I did not know the region. "You would not know,
but our customs are quite wild. You cannot show affection for your
son. Even if he were to fall into a fire you cannot pull him out. It
shows weakness." He did not neglect to add, "Truth be told, that is
not how it is in our family." And so I took the most sincere photograph
possible of Sirri and his son.
Vatan Daily, Turkey
Oct 1 2007
[Report of interview by Mine Senokackli with DTP member Sirri Sakik,
date and location not given: "If 1921 Constitution is Taken as
Reference Then Kurdish Problem Will be Solved."]
Key DTP [Democratic Society Party] figure Sirri Sakik is working to
build a bridge of peace rather than create tension. Many members of
his family have been killed but he is not keeping score. In order to
stop one more being lost he continually says, "We cannot solve this
problem alone; we must partner up." This goes for Parliament and the
country. Fine, but how?
To begin with, by accepting in the Constitution that all cultures
can express themselves democratically. Sakik says this is what
the 1921 Constitution says and that this will solve a significant
proportion of the problems. What next? Then everybody be they MHP
[Nationalist Action Party], AKP [Justice and Development Party], CHP
[Republican People's Party] or DTP will have to make sacrifices to
keep our children alive rather than keep score!
Since the establishment of the Kurdish political movement inside...
One of his younger brothers is Semdin Sakik of the PKK leadership.
Many of his relatives have been killed, most in mystery murders.
Furthermore, some were not shot but burned to death when their villages
were torched! They found one of his elder brothers, Abdulsamet Sakik,
with a bullet in the back of his neck. When I asked who did it he
looked at me as if I came from outer space: "Are you not from this
country? The security forces did it!" I know a few things but who can
find the exact truth in this country! Say what you like but only the
survivors know exactly what happened. And of course you interpret it
according to the side you are on.
MHP Must Make Sacrifices
Let us move on. While his younger brother was in the mountains of
Erzurum his elder brother's son was a soldier in Erzurum. In other
words there was the possibility of the nephew shooting his uncle or
being shot on his uncle's orders! You try to understand what he was
going through. You need to be pretty empathic! Despite everything he
has lived through Sirri Sakik is one of the most rational of the DTP
representatives. He is working to build a bridge of peace rather than
create tension. In a climate in which everybody says whatever comes
to mind he includes the word "partnership" in every sentence.
Partnership with whom? According to him, with the founding elements
of the Turkish Republic -the Turks, the Kurds, the Circassians,
the Laz; with everybody who fought shoulder to shoulder in the Was
of Independence. He says this is precisely why they are in Parliament.
For what? In order to establish a dialogue and to bring those in the
mountains off them. "We need to partner up; first in Parliament and
then nationwide. Just as the AKP cannot fix the headscarf problem by
itself so the DTP cannot fix the Kurdish problem by itself. If this
problem is to be solved then the MHP, the CHP and the AKP, which took
a lot of Kurdish votes, must make self sacrifices," says Sakik.
The Soldiers Are Our Brothers
He says he wants to build a bridge of peace. I tell him, "All well and
good but some of your colleagues are saying things that add fuel to
the fire." He is a little uneasy. "We have suffered a lot. You have
to understand. If our brothers are in the mountains are we no longer
to call them brothers? Every home in the region has somebody who is
either in the mountains or in prison, or in the ground." I am still
trying to create empathy. He continues: "I went to a funeral once. Just
20 paces away there was a Turkish flag flying over a grave. It was a
martyr's grave. Right next to it was a PKK guerilla's grave. One says
'Vatan' while one says 'Welat.' [Motherland] They both speak different
languages but are buried in the same soil."
Sakik says: "These lands were watered with the blood of our children.
We do not want any more blood to flow." I believe he is being
sincere. So, how can the bloodshed be stopped? He thinks by going
back to the tolerance and War of Independence spirit that existed
86 years ago. By clearly stating in the new Constitution that all
the peoples who died for this land -the founders according to the
1921 Constitution meaning the Kurds and the Circassians and the Laz
-are again the founding elements. In other words, by embracing all
the peoples.
AKP Talks About More Democracy But Does The Opposite!
"For years now every political party has said, 'The PKK is a terrorist
organization.' Has the problem been solved? No, it has not."
[Senocakli] How will the southeast problem be solved?
[Sakik] We need to place our hands on our consciences and look at the
region. Many intellectuals and politicians refrain even from speaking
about a solution to the problem. We all feel as timid as pigeons, to
paraphrase Hrant Dink. Fears are being pushed all the time in this
country. To what degree can intellectuals and politicians express
their ideas in a country shrouded by fear? This climate of fear needs
to be dispelled right away. Politics is the art of fixing problems.
If you cannot fix the problems then you quit and leave. The AKP has a
lot of popular support so it should be able to fix the problems bravely
and without fear. But I cannot say that the AKP is brave here. They are
very afraid. The more they are afraid the more they lash out at others.
[Senocakli] Who are the Others?
[Sakik] Whenever they are under pressure they turn around and put
pressure on us. The other day Dengir Mir Firat, a person I care for
a lot, said to us quite undeservedly, "Go to the mountains." Why?
Because they are in a corner as the debates over the new constitution
are going on. Who else could have been the target? We are. They say
that rivers make loops at the weakest stretches of land. Turkey's
weakest point is the Kurdish problem. That is why it is always used to
make politics. What does he mean by "Let them go to the mountains?" We
want to bring those in the mountains off them. We want to build a
bridge, establish a dialogue.
[Senocakli] So how are you going to build this bridge?
[Sakik] Our efforts alone will not be enough to fix Turkey's
fundamental problems. Everybody who believes in democracy and freedom
should get together. Whoever says the most that they believe in
democracy and freedom should first...
[Senocakli] But the AKP is advocating this right now...
[Sakik] Not in practice, though.
[Senocakli] You mean that when they advocate democracy they actually
do the opposite?
[Sakik] The prime minister said in America: "The Kurds have the right
to education in their own language. We put that in the Constitution."
Nothing of the sort. A few days before in Parliament he says,
"One flag, one nation, one motherland." Yes. Nobody is objecting to a
single flag, a unitary structure and a single motherland. But it is not
just the Turks who live here. Problems cannot be solved by ignoring
the other peoples and creating only one single nation. That is the
source of all our problems. The prime minister says in Diyarbakir:
"I recognize the Kurdish reality. We are going to take steps to solve
the Kurdish problem." But when he gets back to Ankara he switches
to Ankara mode and says, "One nation." But we are not one nation,
and the prime minister knows this. Everybody can see that they are
being two-faced. We can see how democrat they are when they go to the
United States or Europe, and exactly how democrat they are when they
return. The AKP has no road map for the democratization of Turkey or
the fixing of the Kurdish problem. None of this would be happening
if such a road map existed. We need to partner up in order to address
Turkey's fundamental problems.
[Senocakli] You are also expected to take a step in calling the PKK
a terrorist organization. You are not saying this?
[Sakik] Turkey must break this mould. The late Turgut Ozal used to
say the same thing. But he later called us. "If you were to say
this what would be left? Would you have any influence with them
afterwards?" he said. For many years now every political party in
Turkey has called the PKK a terrorist organization. Has the problem
been solved? It has not. Turkey must break this mould. Problems
are not solved through hostile rhetoric. At this point the prime
minister is trying to repeat the past. We really must partner up
if we are to solve the problem. Just as the prime minister cannot
solve the headscarf problem by himself so we cannot fix the Kurdish
problem alone either. We are always ready to take a step. We came to
Parliament in order to establish dialogue and open up the clenched
fists. But we cannot do this alone. We need to act together. We think
that the MHP, the CHP and in particular the AKP need to make a lot
of self sacrifice. Many people in the region voted for the AKP to get
these problems fixed. The people are telling it how it is: "Fix this
problem. We no longer want fighting or violence." There are serious
expectations of the AKP here. It goes without saying that if the AKP
makes good on these expectations then we shall all applaud it. But
right now as far as we can tell they are not in a position to respond
to these expectations because they do not work in partnership with
anyone else. There is no partnership over the new constitution even.
On the contrary, they are using the political power they have like
a ruthless weapon.
One Says Vatan, One Says Welat... One Soldier, One PKK... Both Buried
In The Same Soil
[Senocakli] Which articles of the constitution are problematic and
need to be changed in your opinion?
[Sakik] We want a constitution that embraces all the peoples. To
say, "The Turkish Republic Constitution accepts that all cultures
may express themselves democratically" that will large solve our
problems. I am not saying that the constitution say only Turks
and Kurds, but all the peoples. That is how it was in the 1921
Constitution, in Mustafa Kemal's Constitution. It says, "The true
owners of this country are the Turks and the Kurds." Mustafa Kemal
refers to Kurdish deputies as Kurdistan deputies and to Laz deputies
as Lazistan deputies. But the policies of denial and destruction
begin in 1924 and continue today. We want the cultures of all the
peoples not just the Kurds to be given constitutional assurances.
[Senocakli] But apart from the Kurds the other people do not have
such demands.
[Sakik] This is how it should be if we really believe in democracy,
freedom and rule of law. Yes, the Kurds and the Turks are in the
majority; let us defend their rights. But there are also non-Muslims
here, Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Circassians and Laz. They may not
want these things today but they might want them later on. It is my
moral and conscientious responsibility to give them assurances, too. A
solution needs to be formulated that enables the religion and culture
of all the peoples to develop. I should be able to express my identity
freely and live. My identity should not be a hindrance for me...
[Senocakli] What exactly would make you happy?
[Sakik] Honestly, the Constitution should say unequivocally that it
embraces all the peoples living in Turkey. If it says that we can
breathe easily.
If Turgut Ozal had not died the PKK would have laid down its arms!
[Senocakli] You said that Ozal said, "If you call the PKK a terrorist
organization you will lose all your influence with it." Is that true?
[Sakik] Yes.
[Senocakli] Do you really have influence over the PKK or is it the
other way round?
[Sakik] Ozal called us in 1993 and sent us to Damascus to meet with
Ocalan. He had a very important project and he wanted to bring that
project to life. If we had done what Ozal told us to on the first day
and we had said this, there is no way we could have gone to Damascus.
[Senocakli] What was this Damascus project?
[Sakik] There was a ceasefire in effect. Ozal sent us to Damascus in
order to prolong the ceasefire. We went and the meeting took place.
The ceasefire was extended. We were just about to bring that project
to life when Ozal dies. There are still suspicions surrounding Ozal's
death. That veil of fog has not been lifted. Why did he die just when
those in the mountains were about to surrender their arms?
Unfortunately, that is how it is in our country. But we did learn one
thing. Death does not bring life. We saw that oppression and violence
cannot solve this problem.
[Senocakli] We saw that but soldiers are still being martyred every
day...
[Sakik] They should die. That is our cry. Nobody should die. Nobody's
nose should bleed even. If this country is homeland for all of us,
if we are to establish peace and democracy and become a happy family
then the onus is on all of us. Not just on the DTP. How do we disarm
the armed forces? How do we reinstate the PKK immediately back into
life? If the PKK really does want to solve the problem within a
unitary structure then there is no need to alienate. Every home in
the region has somebody who is in the mountains, in prison or in the
ground. That is our reality. How are we to ignore this? If your child
were in the mountains what would you do?
[Senocakli] The DP [Democrat Party] candidate for Diyarbakir Ms
Suna Kepoglu said: "Turkey's current agenda is the grief of bereaved
parents! The state must stand up for its citizens. Even if they go
into the mountains."
[Sakik] The people of the region are experiencing this to the letter.
It is a pity that these lands have been watered with blood ever since
Byzantium. We are fed up with bloodshed. It has to stop.
[Senocakli] You are expected to take the first step, though...
[Sakik] That is what we are doing. Right from day one we have been
acting responsibly with regard to solving the problem.
[Senocakli] So you think. But Sebahat Tuncel gets out of prison and
enters Parliament saying, "The PKK are our brothers" and hurts the
30,000 martyrs families.
[Sakik] The soldiers are our children and brothers, too. But this
is a reality. If I have a brother in the mountains I cannot say, "He
is not my brother"! Go and research it. Every household has three to
five people in the mountains and two to three people in prison. These
people have families who vote. I have lost dozens of people from
my family. Just like the poet said, "Those calling the land home in
different languages will still end up being buried in the same land."
During the elections I went to a funeral in Mus. We went to the
cemetery. I saw a flag flying over one grave. I asked and they told
me it was the grave of a soldier. Just 20 paces away was the grave of
a PKK militant. Just side by side really. One says "Vatan" the other
says "Welat." But they are both buried in the same soil. That is how
close we are to one another.
[Senocakli] Welat?
[Sakik] Kurdish for Vatan [Motherland or Homeland]
BOTh the dead soldier and the dead PKK member are in the same soil,
buried next to one another. This is all our motherland, and we feel
the pain.
My Younger Brother In The Mountains While My Nephew Was A Soldier!
There are families in the east with some members in the mountains
while other members are doing their military service. In 1995 my
younger brother Semdin Sakik was in the mountains. My nephew was a
soldier in Erzurum. They were both in the same region. One my elder
brother's son. The other my younger brother. One PKK, one a soldier.
Just imagine what the families are going through there! They could
encounter one another at any time. They could put bullets into one
another. That is the reality of our country.
Sirri Sakik believes that the bloodshed can be stopped. He says that
in order to do this the state has to take two steps.
The first step is to mention all peoples in the Constitution. The
second is a general amnesty that will silence all the guns. Fine,
but if an amnesty is issued will the PKK really lay down their arms?
Sakik believes sincerely that they will. "All that is needed is for
a climate to be created in which the Kurdish problem can be debated
at length."
[Senocakli] You say you do not want separation but maps of Kurdistan
being distributed by America are out there for all to see. Kurds and
Turks living together. Our daughter-in-law is a Kurd. Will I need a
visa in order to visit my nephew and niece in Mus?
[Sakik] Sorry, but it appears that you do not live in this country.
No, there will be nothing of the kind. We all own this homeland.
Where are we to need a visa for? Istanbul is not a Kurdish city but
3-4 million Kurds live there. They have all gone there from one part
of Anatolia or another, acquired property and become Istanbullians.
What power can uproot them and send them back? There are millions of
Kurds living all over Turkey. All share one demand -democracy. The
Kurds have no demands for a state but do have demands for democracy.
Why such fear over the demand for democracy? The Kurds are talking
about a common homeland. "This is our motherland but we want
constitutional assurances. We want to express ourselves," is what
they are saying. No need to fear this. This is our country's rich
diversity. To say you will need a passport to go somewhere is and
unjust comment.
We Are Not Demanding A State, But Democracy!
[Senocakli] You know that people have this fear, but...
[Sakik] Nobody in Turkey should fear this, least of all the
politicians. They should present their leadership qualities to the
people through peace not war. But we turn and see that all politicians
from Demirel to Erdogan talk about the Kurdish reality when they go
to Kurdish areas but when the return to Ankara the Ankara reality
obscures the Kurdish reality. The politicians are very guilty in this.
[Senocakli] You say I am doing you an injustice but did not Leyla
Zana step up and say, "We have three leaders: Barzani, Talabani and
Ocalan"? How can I not think that you want a separate state?
[Sakik] What Ms Zana said concerns only her. I do not want to talk
about her. But we all know where the Kurds stand and what there
demands are here. The Kurds have been unable to send representatives
to Parliament because of legal obstacles for many years. Even now
we do not receive Treasury funding. There is oppression. There is
violence. In the region all the other parties gang up on us. Despite
all this we have been able to send 22 deputies to Parliament, which
is an important message. We want to fix our problems in Ankara within
unity and integrity.
[Senocakli] So, there are problems even among yourselves?
[Sakik] Could be. Does everybody in Turkey think in unison? No. There
are tons of different political parties and different personalities.
[Senocakli] Do you not think that the first of all the Kurds need to
be in unison, in order to send a clearer message to Ankara?
[Sakik] I do not know. But the messages at this point are clear. The
project reflected in Parliament on 22 July and spearheaded by the DTP
is clear for all to see. But nobody sees it. This person said this
or that. They can say what they like. That is their right. Everybody
should be able to express their views freely. That is what it means
to be a democracy. Therefore, nobody should be afraid just because
one person stands up and voices such ideas.
[Senocakli] But Zana is an important figure within your movement.
That is why what she says carries weight.
[Sakik] We are fighting for such modern concepts as law, justice and
human rights to come to life. I mean, bottomless and discriminatory
concepts are not what we are about. We want real democracy to come
to life both in Istanbul and Sirnak. We want the climate of violence
and bloodshed to end immediately. We think that the armed forces
should be disarmed immediately and that only together can we bring
this about. What somebody else says if of no concern to me. But we
in the DTP think like this.
[Senocakli] So, what about Diyarbakir Mayor Osman Baydemir saying,
"Every bomb dropped on Kirkuk is a bomb dropped on Diyarbakir." What
do you say to this? Is the DTP throwing its lot in with northern Iraq
or with Turkey? Who do you favour?
[Sakik] Those questions are unfair. Our face is towards Istanbul,
towards Ankara. Why Istanbul? Because Istanbul is Turkey's gateway
to Europe. Why Ankara? Because Ankara is a sign of our faith in
parliamentary democracy. We want to solve our problems here.
Everything else falls outside us. We have no business there. We
have blood and genetic ties to the people there but we have a strong
emotional bond with the people of Turkey. I think this emotional bond
is the most sacred of bonds. We will do whatever this bond requires.
I believe that all DTP members think the same way. We are a Turkey
party. We are working hard to become more a part of Turkey.
Is Not Izmir A CHP Fortress?
[Senocakli] So why are such statements being made then? Some Kurdish
intellectuals are putting it down to Baydemir's inexperience. What
do you think?
[Sakik] Izmir is a fortress for the CHP, is it not? Konya is a
fortress for another line of thought, yes? When these are mentioned
nothing happens. But when the prime minister says, "I particularly want
Diyarbakir" the Mayor of Diyarbakir says, "No; this is my fortress and
I will not yield it" all hell breaks loose. Why is there no empathy
between us on this? I mean would you give up the place you are in if
somebody wants it? No. You should not be interpreting this differently.
The Reason For The 10 Per cent Voting Threshold Is Us. Is That Any
Kind Of Fraternity?
[Senocakli] What can Ankara do to make the PKK give up its weapons?
[Sakik] If a general amnesty is issued then the PKk will give up
its weapons.
[Senocakli] Does that general amnesty include Ocalan?
[Sakik] Of course without the grounds being prepared first it sounds
scary to say this right now. But, unfortunately, some realities in
Turkey are being accepted with much difficulty. The Kurdish reality is
being accepted only after tens of thousands of people died. Turkey is
on a fault line. But we only began to accept that reality on 17 August
when that earthquake killed 20,000 people and we paid a heavy price.
[Senocakli] But there are 30,000 martyrs families in this country...
[Sakik] We know. It is difficult to dress the wounds. But one must
not think one-sided. Our children also go and do their compulsory
military service. There are a lot of dead Kurdish children among
those dead soldiers. It is not just the children of Turks who are
dying but everybody's children. That is our reality. That is why
the idea of separation is incompatible with our country's lay of the
land. We know the grief of the soldiers' families. But on the other
hand there are 30-40,000 dead people and 20,000 mystery murders. What
about their pain? But we must fix the problem without aggravating that
grief. We must make a reckoning. Have we not sinned at all against
these people? Are people taking up arms and going to the mountains
because they are mad? What happened to make everybody risk death? There
is no empathy in this matter in Turkey. That is what is missing?
[Senocakli] One is obliged to do military service. What about the
other?
[Sakik] Alright, let us put the guerrillas aside. What about the
mystery murders. Unarmed and defenceless people in the region have
been murdered. My elder brother was a mystery murder victim. They
killed him in Antep with a bullet to the back of his neck. We all
have wounds. But you cannot bring about peace by keeping score. "How
can we dress these wounds? How can we come up with a peace project?"
These are the things we should be discussing.
There are tears on both sides. There is increasing pain on both
sides. We have to soothe this pain. You cannot solve the problem by
saying, "This many people died here." If the policy of oppression,
denial and destruction followed to date were correct then today there
would be no AKP and we would not be in Parliament. This means that
this policy is wrong.
[Senocakli] What do you mean?
If your policies regarding reactionaryism were correct the AKP ought
not to be in power today. But society does not approve of those
policies. These fears have been pushed ever since the Republic was
founded. At one time the fear was looming communism. Look at the
price people paid for that. Gallows were built. Age did not matter.
They were taken, allowed to grow older and then executed. They hanged
people who had never touched a gun. We all suffered so much. Then came
the Alevi-Sunni conflict. Then the fear that the country was going
to break up and become partitioned. Then the reactionary fear came
along. We have to learn to defeat our fears. We saw prior to the 22
July elections how the masses poured into the streets spearheaded by
certain institutions. But this hype never works. It cannot obstruct
the people's will. The AKP got 47 per cent.
They never changed the elections law for many years. The reason is
us, the Kurds. We are citizens of this country. We want to solve
our problems in Ankara. But we are the reason for the 10 per cent
threshold. Is that any kind of democracy, any kind of fraternity?
This is enough is it not to show what kind of discriminatory picture
there is. That is why the notion that the Kurds want to partition
the country is unfair and uncompassionate.
Most Sincere Photograph With His Son
Sirri Sakik has three sons: Cenk, Heval and Sedar. Heval means
friend. Sedar means three trees. Sakik Sirri came to the interview
with his son Sedar, who is studying in the Communications Department
of Kultur University. I asked for a photograph of him and his son.
They stood side by side. I told them, "Stand like this." Mr Sakik
spoke knowing that I did not know the region. "You would not know,
but our customs are quite wild. You cannot show affection for your
son. Even if he were to fall into a fire you cannot pull him out. It
shows weakness." He did not neglect to add, "Truth be told, that is
not how it is in our family." And so I took the most sincere photograph
possible of Sirri and his son.