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TURKISH MILITARY SHELLS NORTHERN IRAQ & AMASSES 60,000 TROOPS ON BORDER AS U.S.-TURKEY RELATIONS DETERIORATE OVER HOUSE VOTE ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
Democracy Now, NY
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/1 0/15/1351243
Oct 15 2007
Turkey's top general warned this weekend that US-Turkey relations
would "never be the same again" if the United States House votes to
declare the World War I-era mass killings of 1.5 million Armenians a
genocide. Despite President Bush's plea, the House Foreign Affairs
Committee voted 27-21 Wednesday to call the killing of Armenians
by Ottoman Turks "systematic," "deliberate," and amounting to
"genocide." [includes rush transcript]
The Turkish military has stepped up attacks against what it says
are Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, bases in northern Iraq. The
shelling comes just ahead of a vote in the Turkish Parliament on a bill
authorizing a ground incursion against Kurdish fighters in Iraq. The
military has reportedly amassed 60,000 troops along its border with
Iraq. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Turkey to refrain
from any major military operation. But Washington's influence over
Turkey appears to be waning.
Turkey's top general warned this weekend that US-Turkey relations
would "never be the same again" if the United States House votes to
declare the World War I-era mass killings of 1.5 million Armenians a
genocide. Despite President Bush's plea, the House Foreign Affairs
committee voted 27-21 Wednesday to call the killing of Armenians
by Ottoman Turks "systematic," "deliberate," and amounting to
"genocide." Turkey recalled its ambassador to Washington last week.
Undersecretary of Defense Eric Edelman visited Ankara on Saturday
in an attempt to improve worsening ties. He apologized for the House
Committee vote on behalf of the Bush administration.
Eric Edelman For the Bush administration the stakes of alienating
Turkey are high.
Turkey is a major cargo hub for U.S. and allied military forces in
Iraq and Afghanistan. About 70 percent of U.S. air cargo and one-third
of the fuel headed for Iraq goes through Turkey.
US defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking in London on Thursday,
highlighted the close relationship between Turkey and the United
States.
Robert Gates To discuss this, we are now joined by two guests who
have been closely following these issues. Zanku Armenian is on the
Board of Directors of the Armenian National Committee of America. He
joins us from Los Angeles, California. Arman Artuc is the editor of
a webzine for Armenians in Turkey. He joins us here in the firehouse
studio in New York.
Zanku Armenian, serves on the Board of Directors of the Armenian
National Committee of America. He is also a founder and co-chair of
the Armenian American Democratic Leadership Council.
Arman Artuc, Armenian from Turkey. He is the editor of an online
Armenian website, hyetert.com and is a graduate student in New York.
------------
RUSH TRANSCRIPT
This transcript is available free of charge. However, donations help
us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our
TV broadcast. Thank you for your generous contribution.
Donate - $25, $50, $100, more...
AMY GOODMAN: The Turkish military has stepped up attacks against what
it says are Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, bases in northern Iraq.
The shelling comes just ahead of a vote in the Turkish parliament
on a bill authorizing a ground invasion against Kurdish fighters in
Iraq. The military has reportedly amassed 60,000 troops along its
border with Iraq. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Turkey to
refrain from any major military operation, but Washington's influence
over Turkey appears to be waning.
Turkey's top general warned this weekend US-Turkey relations will
"never be the same again" if the US House of Representatives votes
to declare the World War I-era mass killings of 1.5 million Armenians
a genocide. Despite President Bush's plea, the House Foreign Affairs
Committee voted 27-21 Wednesday to call the killing of Armenians by
Ottoman Turks "systematic," "deliberate" and amounting to "genocide."
Turkey recalled its ambassador to Washington last week.
US Undersecretary of Defense Eric Edelman visited Ankara Saturday
in an attempt to improve worsening ties. He apologized for the House
committee vote on behalf of the Bush administration.
ERIC EDELMAN: [...] at the action that was taken by the House Foreign
Affairs Committee in voting HR-106, the resolution that came out
of committee, they asked us to convey to our Turkish colleagues
the determination of the administration to continue to oppose
this resolution and to try and prevent its passage. We had a good
and constructive discussion in which our colleagues expressed the
disappointment and the hurt of both the government of Turkey and the
Turkish public.
AMY GOODMAN: For the Bush administration, the stakes of alienating
Turkey are high. Turkey is a major cargo hub for US and allied military
forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. About 70% of US air cargo and one-third
of the fuel headed for Iraq goes through Turkey.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking in London Thursday,
highlighted the close relationship between Turkey and the US.
ROBERT GATES: I think we all recognize there were mass murders
ninety-five years ago, 1915. The problem that we have is that this is
clearly a very sensitive subject for one of our closest allies and
an ally that is incredibly important to the United States in terms
of our operations in Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: We're joined right now by two guests who have been closely
following these issues. Zanku Armenian is on the board of directors
of the Armenian National Committee of America, joining us from Los
Angeles, California. And Arman Artuc is the editor of a webzine for
Armenians in Turkey. He joins us here in the firehouse studio in New
York. We welcome you both to Democracy Now!
Zanku Armenian, let's begin with you. What happened in 1915?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: In 1915, the Ottoman Turkish government began a policy
-- implementing a policy of mass extermination and deportations in
order to solve what they viewed as the Armenian problem in the eastern
provinces of Turkey under the cover of World War I, and 1.5 million
Armenians were exterminated in that process, as they were killed,
raped, and driven and deported south through the Syrian deserts.
AMY GOODMAN: And what has been the acknowledgement of this by the
Turkish government since that time? We're talking about, well, almost
a century later.
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, Amy, that's a good question, because that's
exactly what makes it a current issue. The successive Turkish
governments and the Republic of Turkey, separate from the Ottoman
Turkish government, have, instead of coming to terms with this
history, acknowledging this history, have instead chosen to spend
millions of dollars with public relations firms and lobbying firms
in a desperate attempt to deny that this part of history, their
history, ever happened. And it's unfortunate because that is what
has held Turkey back through the decades, and increasingly they have
become isolated on this issue, because there are dozens of countries,
including eight countries in Europe, who have acknowledged the facts
of this history, including the United States's records that show
that this is a documented fact. And, unfortunately, Turkey continues,
instead, to spend its effort and energy in a desperate denial campaign.
AMY GOODMAN: Why is the House voting now? What was the spark for the
Foreign Relations Committee?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, there has been a growing demand within the
country, a grassroots effort throughout the country, to ask the
United States Congress to reaffirm our record on the genocide,
which is very clear, and also calling upon the President to make
sure that our foreign policy reflects the appropriate sensitivity
towards human rights and issues having to do with genocide. And so,
part of the purpose of this resolution is to acknowledge the past
history and acknowledge the important role that the United States has
played in this issue, as well as kind of realigning our foreign policy
into a more credible position, as opposed to pandering to the Turkish
government's denial campaign and actually facilitating that. We should
be playing a leadership role as a country with our values, American
values of democracy and human rights, and encouraging the Turkish
government to say that your policy of denial is really a false --
is not in the interest of the Turkish people in the long run.
AMY GOODMAN: The official Turkish position also highlights the number
of Turks who were killed after 1915. This is what the recalled Turkish
ambassador to the United States, Nabi Sensoy, said last week.
NABI SENSOY: People think that it is only the Armenian who perished
during the events of 1915. They keep forgetting that hundreds of
thousands of Turks also perished during the same events in the hands
of the Armenians. And if you look at this resolution, you will see
that this is a very one-sided resolution. It makes no mention of the
pains of the Turkish side or the deaths of the Turks, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to turn right now to our second guest in studio;
we're joined by Arman Artuc, who is the editor of the online Armenian
website hyetert.com How do you pronounce it?
ARMAN ARTUC: Hyetert.
AMY GOODMAN: And what does that mean?
ARMAN ARTUC: Well, it's, you know, the Armenian words Armenian and
newspaper, so it's Armenian newspaper.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you believe there was a genocide in 1915? And you,
yourself, are Armenian.
ARMAN ARTUC: Yeah, well, I mean, my belief, on one part, however,
I'm -- being a Turkish citizen, you cannot basically, you know, in
a lawful fashion acknowledge the genocide. And so, as it happened to
the murdered journalist Hrant Dink just recently, who was prosecuted
about this, and the charges were dropped after his murder. However,
his son, who reprinted his father's acknowledgment of the genocide in
the newspaper Agos, was just convicted, actually the day after the
bill passed the Foreign Affairs Committee, from the Article 301 of
the Turkish Criminal Law, which says "insulting Turkishness." It's
a very broad and actually vague term used for that particular article.
So even if, you know, personally speaking, I recognize the Armenian
Genocide, it will be unlawful for me to say that it was a genocide.
AMY GOODMAN: Why?
ARMAN ARTUC: Because of this law. So they can persecute me in the
same manner.
AMY GOODMAN: Why is it such a threat to Turkey today, almost a hundred
years later?
ARMAN ARTUC: I think we have to understand how polarized Turkey is on
different issues, not just on the Armenian issue, so this polarization
just recently actually was, you know, in place, especially regarding
to the Islam and the secularism and how the country should, you know,
find its own path, etc., which then was, you know, say, salted and
peppered with what had happened in the Kurdish region recently. And
on top of all this, now we have this bill that's passing through the,
first, Foreign Affairs Committee and now coming to the House. So these
all are polarizing issues for Turkey, so the country is divided in
different terms.
Yet there are some intellectuals in Turkey which now recognize --
intellectuals and scholars, I should say, that recognize the Armenian
Genocide and what had happened to the Armenians at the time. However,
there are actually two issues. One is the ethical issue, where we
can actually say that the Turkish governments and all the Turkish
governments in the republic in Europe basically do not recognize
what had happened to the Armenians at the time. There is a constant
denial of the murders and the killings and the deaths at the time,
what had happened in 1915. Leave apart the word "genocide" for a
second; Turkey did not recognize this piece yet. So I think --
AMY GOODMAN: Did not recognize...?
ARMAN ARTUC: The murders, the perpetrations of 1915. So I think
we still have a long way in Turkey to come to a point where Turkey
actually recognizes the genocide. Yet, there are different reactions
from Turkey, and I think we'll see -- I mean, this is not the first
bill that was introduced in the House. There was one seven or eight
years ago, and there are others in different countries all over
the world.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain what happened seven or eight years ago.
ARMAN ARTUC: Well, actually, there was a similar bill that came to
the -- was coming to the House, but then Dennis Hastert, I think,
was just -- at the last moment did not bring it to the House. Well,
there are different conspiracies about what had actually happened. The
official line goes in Turkey that Bill Clinton at the time gave him a
phone call, and then after that they never brought it to the House,
with similar concerns that Turkey is biggest ally of US, military
issues, I think other financial issues, etc.
AMY GOODMAN: So Bill Clinton took the same role as President Bush.
ARMAN ARTUC: Exactly, exactly. That was what had happened in, you know,
2000 or 2001.
AMY GOODMAN: And Dennis Hastert, at the time head of the House of
Representatives?
ARMAN ARTUC: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: There's a controversy about his involvement with or the
influence of Turkish interests on him.
ARMAN ARTUC: Well, controversy or conspiracy or something. I don't
want to call it anything, because I don't think anyone actually knows
the details about it fully, to full extent.
But, well, you know, I can talk about how -- the reactions in Turkey
for this issue, the most recent bill, and I can say that Turkey will
react this way, where you see, you know, like they hold the ambassador
back, and then they threaten, you know, taking some other military
action, etc. However, if you think about it in the long run, it's only,
you know -- I mean, I, myself, am not a big believer of such bills
in the parliaments of these countries or other countries other than
Turkey. However, at the same time we should understand that in the
long run these bills are the ones that's actually forcing Turkey to
act on this Armenian issue, because it was through these bills that
the government, that the current government, is taking some measures.
Well, there's one interesting measure, which I can't -- I'm not in
the same position with it. However, you know, they are just coming up
with new positions, like the recent one where the head of the current
Turkish government, Prime Minister Erdogan, just basically offered
committees from both sides to create a committee of historians from
both sides -- Armenia and Turkey -- to discuss this issue. Yet there
had been ninety years, there had been lots of works on this issue,
and I think, you know, the rest of the world actually knows what had
happened. So this was a desperate attempt. However, it was an attempt,
and I think that's interesting.
AMY GOODMAN: What is the response of the Turkish people? I mean,
I remember when Hrant Dink was gunned down in front of his offices,
the Armenian Turkish newspaper editor. The people wore T-shirts that
said, "We Are All Hrant Dink," not just Armenian.
ARMAN ARTUC: Yeah. Well, they weren't just Armenians. You're right.
Actually, there were like 50,000 -- some people claimed it was 100,000
-- people that marched that day after the murder of Hrant Dink. And
I think the Armenian community in Istanbul welcomed this.
However, just, you know, after the aftermath of the killing, we saw
that the photographs of the murder, shot with the security forces
at the time, was in all the media, in all the newspapers. And right
after that, especially after these recent killings by the Kurdish,
well, militant guerrilla group, the Kurdish Laborers Party --
the slogan on the T-shirts was at the time, "We Are All Hrant" --
now they are actually using it in a way, "We Are All Mehmet," where
Mehmet is this, you know, like it's the John Doe of Turkey, that,
you know, people are trying to sort of create this reaction to those
people who marched at the time of Hrant Dink's murder, saying that,
"Well, you guys just marched for this Armenian journalist who insulted
Turkishness, but now we are having all these deaths. Our soldiers
are dying, and you guys are not doing anything at all."
AMY GOODMAN: Zanku Armenian, what about the Turkish parliament voting
to authorize an invasion of northern Iraq? What does this mean?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, it's very unfortunate that Turkey would behave
this way, because, you know, as the general said today, claiming
that the United States, you know, is behaving in a way that is not
a good way in terms of being a responsible ally, a good ally, well,
I would turn that back around: why is the Turkish government behaving
more radically, as almost like a radical Islamic state, versus being
the NATO ally that it purports to be? Part of this is also creating
a fait accompli on the ground. Turkey wants to create these sorts
of tensions in order to -- almost as if throwing a temper tantrum
in reaction to a bill, such as the House resolution, which is in
essence just an expression, a sense of Congress. It is a nonbinding
resolution. It does not force the President to do anything specific
other than calling upon the President to make sure that our foreign
policy reflects the appropriate sensitivity toward these issues of
genocide. And unfortunately, the Turkish government, through these
actions, is also, in essence, trying to blackmail the United States
into curtailing our own freedom of speech on this issue. Why is the
United States Congress not going to be allowed to speak about this
issue? Why is the Turkish government trying to export Article 301
into the United States by putting a gag order on our Congress to
express its sense, its opinion, on this issue?
AMY GOODMAN: How significant is Turkey for the US war with Iraq
and Afghanistan?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, Turkey, as a NATO ally, does have an important
role to play in making sure that there is stability in the region.
But I guess a question I would ask is, how much of an -- you know,
what kind of a responsible ally does this sort of thing, where it
would try to invade the northern part of Iraq, which is the only
stable part of Iraq at the current time, and trying to create more
fronts for our forces in Iraq? This is not the behavior we should
expect from an ally of the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you both for being with us: Zanku
Armenian, on the board of directors of the Armenian National Committee
of America, co-founder and co-chair of Armenian American Democratic
Leadership Council; and Arman Artuc, an Armenian from Turkey, is the
editor of an Armenian website.
Democracy Now, NY
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/1 0/15/1351243
Oct 15 2007
Turkey's top general warned this weekend that US-Turkey relations
would "never be the same again" if the United States House votes to
declare the World War I-era mass killings of 1.5 million Armenians a
genocide. Despite President Bush's plea, the House Foreign Affairs
Committee voted 27-21 Wednesday to call the killing of Armenians
by Ottoman Turks "systematic," "deliberate," and amounting to
"genocide." [includes rush transcript]
The Turkish military has stepped up attacks against what it says
are Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, bases in northern Iraq. The
shelling comes just ahead of a vote in the Turkish Parliament on a bill
authorizing a ground incursion against Kurdish fighters in Iraq. The
military has reportedly amassed 60,000 troops along its border with
Iraq. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Turkey to refrain
from any major military operation. But Washington's influence over
Turkey appears to be waning.
Turkey's top general warned this weekend that US-Turkey relations
would "never be the same again" if the United States House votes to
declare the World War I-era mass killings of 1.5 million Armenians a
genocide. Despite President Bush's plea, the House Foreign Affairs
committee voted 27-21 Wednesday to call the killing of Armenians
by Ottoman Turks "systematic," "deliberate," and amounting to
"genocide." Turkey recalled its ambassador to Washington last week.
Undersecretary of Defense Eric Edelman visited Ankara on Saturday
in an attempt to improve worsening ties. He apologized for the House
Committee vote on behalf of the Bush administration.
Eric Edelman For the Bush administration the stakes of alienating
Turkey are high.
Turkey is a major cargo hub for U.S. and allied military forces in
Iraq and Afghanistan. About 70 percent of U.S. air cargo and one-third
of the fuel headed for Iraq goes through Turkey.
US defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking in London on Thursday,
highlighted the close relationship between Turkey and the United
States.
Robert Gates To discuss this, we are now joined by two guests who
have been closely following these issues. Zanku Armenian is on the
Board of Directors of the Armenian National Committee of America. He
joins us from Los Angeles, California. Arman Artuc is the editor of
a webzine for Armenians in Turkey. He joins us here in the firehouse
studio in New York.
Zanku Armenian, serves on the Board of Directors of the Armenian
National Committee of America. He is also a founder and co-chair of
the Armenian American Democratic Leadership Council.
Arman Artuc, Armenian from Turkey. He is the editor of an online
Armenian website, hyetert.com and is a graduate student in New York.
------------
RUSH TRANSCRIPT
This transcript is available free of charge. However, donations help
us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our
TV broadcast. Thank you for your generous contribution.
Donate - $25, $50, $100, more...
AMY GOODMAN: The Turkish military has stepped up attacks against what
it says are Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, bases in northern Iraq.
The shelling comes just ahead of a vote in the Turkish parliament
on a bill authorizing a ground invasion against Kurdish fighters in
Iraq. The military has reportedly amassed 60,000 troops along its
border with Iraq. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Turkey to
refrain from any major military operation, but Washington's influence
over Turkey appears to be waning.
Turkey's top general warned this weekend US-Turkey relations will
"never be the same again" if the US House of Representatives votes
to declare the World War I-era mass killings of 1.5 million Armenians
a genocide. Despite President Bush's plea, the House Foreign Affairs
Committee voted 27-21 Wednesday to call the killing of Armenians by
Ottoman Turks "systematic," "deliberate" and amounting to "genocide."
Turkey recalled its ambassador to Washington last week.
US Undersecretary of Defense Eric Edelman visited Ankara Saturday
in an attempt to improve worsening ties. He apologized for the House
committee vote on behalf of the Bush administration.
ERIC EDELMAN: [...] at the action that was taken by the House Foreign
Affairs Committee in voting HR-106, the resolution that came out
of committee, they asked us to convey to our Turkish colleagues
the determination of the administration to continue to oppose
this resolution and to try and prevent its passage. We had a good
and constructive discussion in which our colleagues expressed the
disappointment and the hurt of both the government of Turkey and the
Turkish public.
AMY GOODMAN: For the Bush administration, the stakes of alienating
Turkey are high. Turkey is a major cargo hub for US and allied military
forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. About 70% of US air cargo and one-third
of the fuel headed for Iraq goes through Turkey.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking in London Thursday,
highlighted the close relationship between Turkey and the US.
ROBERT GATES: I think we all recognize there were mass murders
ninety-five years ago, 1915. The problem that we have is that this is
clearly a very sensitive subject for one of our closest allies and
an ally that is incredibly important to the United States in terms
of our operations in Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: We're joined right now by two guests who have been closely
following these issues. Zanku Armenian is on the board of directors
of the Armenian National Committee of America, joining us from Los
Angeles, California. And Arman Artuc is the editor of a webzine for
Armenians in Turkey. He joins us here in the firehouse studio in New
York. We welcome you both to Democracy Now!
Zanku Armenian, let's begin with you. What happened in 1915?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: In 1915, the Ottoman Turkish government began a policy
-- implementing a policy of mass extermination and deportations in
order to solve what they viewed as the Armenian problem in the eastern
provinces of Turkey under the cover of World War I, and 1.5 million
Armenians were exterminated in that process, as they were killed,
raped, and driven and deported south through the Syrian deserts.
AMY GOODMAN: And what has been the acknowledgement of this by the
Turkish government since that time? We're talking about, well, almost
a century later.
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, Amy, that's a good question, because that's
exactly what makes it a current issue. The successive Turkish
governments and the Republic of Turkey, separate from the Ottoman
Turkish government, have, instead of coming to terms with this
history, acknowledging this history, have instead chosen to spend
millions of dollars with public relations firms and lobbying firms
in a desperate attempt to deny that this part of history, their
history, ever happened. And it's unfortunate because that is what
has held Turkey back through the decades, and increasingly they have
become isolated on this issue, because there are dozens of countries,
including eight countries in Europe, who have acknowledged the facts
of this history, including the United States's records that show
that this is a documented fact. And, unfortunately, Turkey continues,
instead, to spend its effort and energy in a desperate denial campaign.
AMY GOODMAN: Why is the House voting now? What was the spark for the
Foreign Relations Committee?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, there has been a growing demand within the
country, a grassroots effort throughout the country, to ask the
United States Congress to reaffirm our record on the genocide,
which is very clear, and also calling upon the President to make
sure that our foreign policy reflects the appropriate sensitivity
towards human rights and issues having to do with genocide. And so,
part of the purpose of this resolution is to acknowledge the past
history and acknowledge the important role that the United States has
played in this issue, as well as kind of realigning our foreign policy
into a more credible position, as opposed to pandering to the Turkish
government's denial campaign and actually facilitating that. We should
be playing a leadership role as a country with our values, American
values of democracy and human rights, and encouraging the Turkish
government to say that your policy of denial is really a false --
is not in the interest of the Turkish people in the long run.
AMY GOODMAN: The official Turkish position also highlights the number
of Turks who were killed after 1915. This is what the recalled Turkish
ambassador to the United States, Nabi Sensoy, said last week.
NABI SENSOY: People think that it is only the Armenian who perished
during the events of 1915. They keep forgetting that hundreds of
thousands of Turks also perished during the same events in the hands
of the Armenians. And if you look at this resolution, you will see
that this is a very one-sided resolution. It makes no mention of the
pains of the Turkish side or the deaths of the Turks, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to turn right now to our second guest in studio;
we're joined by Arman Artuc, who is the editor of the online Armenian
website hyetert.com How do you pronounce it?
ARMAN ARTUC: Hyetert.
AMY GOODMAN: And what does that mean?
ARMAN ARTUC: Well, it's, you know, the Armenian words Armenian and
newspaper, so it's Armenian newspaper.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you believe there was a genocide in 1915? And you,
yourself, are Armenian.
ARMAN ARTUC: Yeah, well, I mean, my belief, on one part, however,
I'm -- being a Turkish citizen, you cannot basically, you know, in
a lawful fashion acknowledge the genocide. And so, as it happened to
the murdered journalist Hrant Dink just recently, who was prosecuted
about this, and the charges were dropped after his murder. However,
his son, who reprinted his father's acknowledgment of the genocide in
the newspaper Agos, was just convicted, actually the day after the
bill passed the Foreign Affairs Committee, from the Article 301 of
the Turkish Criminal Law, which says "insulting Turkishness." It's
a very broad and actually vague term used for that particular article.
So even if, you know, personally speaking, I recognize the Armenian
Genocide, it will be unlawful for me to say that it was a genocide.
AMY GOODMAN: Why?
ARMAN ARTUC: Because of this law. So they can persecute me in the
same manner.
AMY GOODMAN: Why is it such a threat to Turkey today, almost a hundred
years later?
ARMAN ARTUC: I think we have to understand how polarized Turkey is on
different issues, not just on the Armenian issue, so this polarization
just recently actually was, you know, in place, especially regarding
to the Islam and the secularism and how the country should, you know,
find its own path, etc., which then was, you know, say, salted and
peppered with what had happened in the Kurdish region recently. And
on top of all this, now we have this bill that's passing through the,
first, Foreign Affairs Committee and now coming to the House. So these
all are polarizing issues for Turkey, so the country is divided in
different terms.
Yet there are some intellectuals in Turkey which now recognize --
intellectuals and scholars, I should say, that recognize the Armenian
Genocide and what had happened to the Armenians at the time. However,
there are actually two issues. One is the ethical issue, where we
can actually say that the Turkish governments and all the Turkish
governments in the republic in Europe basically do not recognize
what had happened to the Armenians at the time. There is a constant
denial of the murders and the killings and the deaths at the time,
what had happened in 1915. Leave apart the word "genocide" for a
second; Turkey did not recognize this piece yet. So I think --
AMY GOODMAN: Did not recognize...?
ARMAN ARTUC: The murders, the perpetrations of 1915. So I think
we still have a long way in Turkey to come to a point where Turkey
actually recognizes the genocide. Yet, there are different reactions
from Turkey, and I think we'll see -- I mean, this is not the first
bill that was introduced in the House. There was one seven or eight
years ago, and there are others in different countries all over
the world.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain what happened seven or eight years ago.
ARMAN ARTUC: Well, actually, there was a similar bill that came to
the -- was coming to the House, but then Dennis Hastert, I think,
was just -- at the last moment did not bring it to the House. Well,
there are different conspiracies about what had actually happened. The
official line goes in Turkey that Bill Clinton at the time gave him a
phone call, and then after that they never brought it to the House,
with similar concerns that Turkey is biggest ally of US, military
issues, I think other financial issues, etc.
AMY GOODMAN: So Bill Clinton took the same role as President Bush.
ARMAN ARTUC: Exactly, exactly. That was what had happened in, you know,
2000 or 2001.
AMY GOODMAN: And Dennis Hastert, at the time head of the House of
Representatives?
ARMAN ARTUC: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: There's a controversy about his involvement with or the
influence of Turkish interests on him.
ARMAN ARTUC: Well, controversy or conspiracy or something. I don't
want to call it anything, because I don't think anyone actually knows
the details about it fully, to full extent.
But, well, you know, I can talk about how -- the reactions in Turkey
for this issue, the most recent bill, and I can say that Turkey will
react this way, where you see, you know, like they hold the ambassador
back, and then they threaten, you know, taking some other military
action, etc. However, if you think about it in the long run, it's only,
you know -- I mean, I, myself, am not a big believer of such bills
in the parliaments of these countries or other countries other than
Turkey. However, at the same time we should understand that in the
long run these bills are the ones that's actually forcing Turkey to
act on this Armenian issue, because it was through these bills that
the government, that the current government, is taking some measures.
Well, there's one interesting measure, which I can't -- I'm not in
the same position with it. However, you know, they are just coming up
with new positions, like the recent one where the head of the current
Turkish government, Prime Minister Erdogan, just basically offered
committees from both sides to create a committee of historians from
both sides -- Armenia and Turkey -- to discuss this issue. Yet there
had been ninety years, there had been lots of works on this issue,
and I think, you know, the rest of the world actually knows what had
happened. So this was a desperate attempt. However, it was an attempt,
and I think that's interesting.
AMY GOODMAN: What is the response of the Turkish people? I mean,
I remember when Hrant Dink was gunned down in front of his offices,
the Armenian Turkish newspaper editor. The people wore T-shirts that
said, "We Are All Hrant Dink," not just Armenian.
ARMAN ARTUC: Yeah. Well, they weren't just Armenians. You're right.
Actually, there were like 50,000 -- some people claimed it was 100,000
-- people that marched that day after the murder of Hrant Dink. And
I think the Armenian community in Istanbul welcomed this.
However, just, you know, after the aftermath of the killing, we saw
that the photographs of the murder, shot with the security forces
at the time, was in all the media, in all the newspapers. And right
after that, especially after these recent killings by the Kurdish,
well, militant guerrilla group, the Kurdish Laborers Party --
the slogan on the T-shirts was at the time, "We Are All Hrant" --
now they are actually using it in a way, "We Are All Mehmet," where
Mehmet is this, you know, like it's the John Doe of Turkey, that,
you know, people are trying to sort of create this reaction to those
people who marched at the time of Hrant Dink's murder, saying that,
"Well, you guys just marched for this Armenian journalist who insulted
Turkishness, but now we are having all these deaths. Our soldiers
are dying, and you guys are not doing anything at all."
AMY GOODMAN: Zanku Armenian, what about the Turkish parliament voting
to authorize an invasion of northern Iraq? What does this mean?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, it's very unfortunate that Turkey would behave
this way, because, you know, as the general said today, claiming
that the United States, you know, is behaving in a way that is not
a good way in terms of being a responsible ally, a good ally, well,
I would turn that back around: why is the Turkish government behaving
more radically, as almost like a radical Islamic state, versus being
the NATO ally that it purports to be? Part of this is also creating
a fait accompli on the ground. Turkey wants to create these sorts
of tensions in order to -- almost as if throwing a temper tantrum
in reaction to a bill, such as the House resolution, which is in
essence just an expression, a sense of Congress. It is a nonbinding
resolution. It does not force the President to do anything specific
other than calling upon the President to make sure that our foreign
policy reflects the appropriate sensitivity toward these issues of
genocide. And unfortunately, the Turkish government, through these
actions, is also, in essence, trying to blackmail the United States
into curtailing our own freedom of speech on this issue. Why is the
United States Congress not going to be allowed to speak about this
issue? Why is the Turkish government trying to export Article 301
into the United States by putting a gag order on our Congress to
express its sense, its opinion, on this issue?
AMY GOODMAN: How significant is Turkey for the US war with Iraq
and Afghanistan?
ZANKU ARMENIAN: Well, Turkey, as a NATO ally, does have an important
role to play in making sure that there is stability in the region.
But I guess a question I would ask is, how much of an -- you know,
what kind of a responsible ally does this sort of thing, where it
would try to invade the northern part of Iraq, which is the only
stable part of Iraq at the current time, and trying to create more
fronts for our forces in Iraq? This is not the behavior we should
expect from an ally of the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you both for being with us: Zanku
Armenian, on the board of directors of the Armenian National Committee
of America, co-founder and co-chair of Armenian American Democratic
Leadership Council; and Arman Artuc, an Armenian from Turkey, is the
editor of an Armenian website.