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EDUARD SHEVARDNADZE: GORBACHEV AND YELTSIN CONFRONTATION LED TO THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION
RIA Novosti
16:00 | 20/ 12/ 2007
Ahead of the 16th anniversary of the formal dissolution of the Soviet
Union and establishment of the Commonwealth of Independent States,
Eduard Shevardnadze, a former Soviet foreign minister, spoke to Besik
Pipia, head of the RIA Novosti Bureau in Georgia, at his residence
in Krtsanisi.
- Eduard Amvrosievich, on December 21, 1991, in Almaty, the heads of
11 Soviet republics signed a declaration terminating the Soviet Union
and establishing a Commonwealth of Independent States. What preceded
that event?
Do you think the transformation of the Soviet Union into the CIS was
inevitable and if so, why?
- In the late 1980s, everything was heading towards the disintegration
of the Soviet Union. The disintegration was also accelerated by the
confrontation between Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Gorbachev, naturally,
was for a united Soviet Union, while Yeltsin was already president of
Russia. Perhaps he, too, was for preserving the Soviet Union, but he
and Gorbachev bitterly hated each other. We, the people close to them,
tried to somehow patch up things and end unpleasant conversations. But
we failed.
The process was hastened by a plot against Gorbachev, or rather against
the Soviet president. Before that there was my resignation. In the
Foreign Ministry, which I headed, about 30% of personnel were KGB
men. They informed me that a counter-revolution was being prepared. I
talked with the one and the other, but could convince neither. And
then, in protest against the counter-revolution, I resigned.
I made a public address and said it would be the shortest speech in
my life.
I said a dictatorship was coming and no one knew who the dictator
would be, and what would happen to perestroika, democracy and so
on. Gorbachev asked me to stay, but I left the hall, climbed into a
car, and was driven home.
About a month and a half later, Gorbachev went to Foros on
vacation. But on the way there I think he made a stopover in Minsk,
had a meeting with party activists and told them the threat of a
dictatorship was real and asked supporters of perestroika to show
more vigilance and not to let a dictatorship pass.
Then followed a putsch, exacerbating relations between the presidents
of the U.S.S.R. and Russia further. The disintegration of the state
could not be stopped.
- Georgia joined the CIS two years after the Commonwealth was
formed. Was it a forced move or a voluntary decision?
- I did not seek CIS membership: there was no great desire to do
so. Because after I read the Charter of the Commonwealth I saw it was
not the kind of organization to replace the Soviet Union. Yeltsin,
however, was insisting and several times rang me up, advising me to
join. I was not against it, but at that time Georgia already had
a parliament and 30 to 40 percent of its deputies were opposed to
entering the CIS, which they associated with the Soviet Union.
Then, about two years later, I was in Moscow and dropped in on Yeltsin
to tell him that I was ready to join the CIS despite opposition
in parliament.
There was the tragedy of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and I thought
the solution to the problem would depend on Russia.
- The problems remained frozen for many years, but recently Mikheil
Saakashvili, Georgia's third president, said he could return South
Ossetia to Georgia's jurisdiction within several months.
- I do not know. His friend, a former defense minister, said the same,
incidentally. Nothing came of that. Currently an election campaign is
under way, with presidential candidates lavishly handing out promises
right and left. He also said he would get Sukhumi back, but it would
not be simple.
And it can only be done through Russia. If Georgia could agree with
Russia and find solutions acceptable to Georgia, to Abkhazia and to
Russia, then the solution could be found.
I have talked with Putin. I am sure he is a man one can negotiate
with despite involved relations existing between Russia and Georgia
today. Putin is a man of his word.
Once when Putin was on vacation in Sochi, he rang me up and invited
me to join him in holidaying and even discuss some business. I came
and we met.
Putin proposed to me that the Abkhazian sector of the railroad be
restored to enable trains to run to Baku, Yerevan and even Turkey. I
did not object and made a reciprocal request: to return refugees to
the Galsky district.
The region in Soviet times had a population of 80,000 people, mainly
Georgians and was an area abundant in tea, citrus fruit, and nuts,
which fed nearly half of Abkhazia.
Putin picked up the receiver and called the Russian general commanding
the peacekeeping force there. He told him that settlers from the Gali
district were living in Mingrelian areas there. He instructed him to
collect those people and return them to the Gali district. He said
he had given his word to the Georgian president and would check the
fulfillment of his instruction in a few days' time. The full number
could not be mustered, but 50,000 to 60,000 refugees were able to
come back to the Gali district.
- Can you see the Soviet Union being restored?
- Absolutely not. Not only Georgia, but also all the other former
Soviet republics have become independent states. Take Kazakhstan,
a very rich country with all the mineral resources of Mendeleyev's
periodic table and Nursultan Nazarbayev as the lifetime president. It
is unlikely to give up its independence.
- Does the CIS have a future?
- Yes, it does, if it becomes truly effective and gains the ability
to influence the situation in all of its member countries.
- There are many rumors about your resignation from the post of
Georgia's president. Some say that Mikheil Saakashvili is your pupil
and the "rose revolution" was a way to hand power over to him. Others
say that you did not have the power to suppress the demonstrations. And
still others claim that it was Moscow who forced you to resign. Which
of these rumors is true?
- Moscow had nothing to do with it.
- Why then did Igor Ivanov, then foreign minister of Russia, come
to Georgia?
- He came as a friend. First he met with the opposition, and then
we discussed the situation. But he could not do anything for me. He
asked me to give him a plane to fly to Batumi and on to Moscow. This
is how his mission ended.
I was addressing parliament when Saakashvili, [Zurab] Zhvania and
other conspirators rushed in. I saw people armed with submachine guns,
handguns, knives and truncheons.
- Not roses?
- No, and I don't know why they called it the rose revolution. I
didn't see a single rose.
The situation was dangerous, and my bodyguards led me into the yard,
where I saw the opposition and my supporters, about 2,500 people in
all. I was told that I should brace up, that they would rally 100,000
people in my support the next day.
I saw it as an attempted coup, announced the state of emergency, and
went home. As I was riding in the car, I thought that I could do it,
because I still was the president and commander-in-chief, and so had
the power to issue orders to the army. The army had guns and tanks;
it was not a very large army, but it had enough weapons to win. But
there would be victims on both sides, and I could not allow anyone
to be killed.
I phoned the secretariat from the car to revoke the state of emergency
order. When I came home, my wife said: "What are you going to do? I
know what a state of emergency is: there will be blood."
I told her that there would be no bloodshed, but I would not be
president the next day because I would resign.
My son called from Paris, where he works for UNESCO, asking if there
would be bloodshed. I told him: No, there wouldn't be any.
The next day I invited the conspirators - Zhvania and Saakashvili -
and asked them how we would live after what happened yesterday.
Zhvania told me my resignation would be the least painful solution,
but they could not suggest it because they are my pupils.
I replied that we were wasting time, because I had decided to resign
the day before, adding that I was ready to help them with advice,
if they needed it.
Then there were elections, and Zhvania became prime minister. He was
later killed.
- Did they kill him or was it really "gas poisoning from a faulty
heater"?
- He was killed. They said he died of carbon monoxide poisoning,
but when our and American experts investigated the circumstances of
his death, they concluded that it was not gas poisoning. I don't know
where or how he was killed.
- Can you explain why the people demanded the resignation of
Saakashvili in early November?
- There is hunger in Georgia. I know that not all Russians are rich,
and there are problems in some Russian regions. But there is no hunger
in Russia, thanks to Vladimir Putin. He is a smart man and his policy
has helped to improve the people's living standards. But Georgians
are impoverished and hungry.
- What do you think about Tbilisi's reaction to public protests?
- When they learned that the people were coming to Tbilisi, the
president should have talked with them the same day. Had he promised
them half, or even one third, of what he is promising now, the people
would have gone home peacefully and there would be no problems.
The decision to close down the Imedia TV channel was a gross mistake;
nobody does this in other countries. Do all TV channels in the United
States praise President George W. Bush? No, many criticize him, but
nobody closes down TV channels in the US, or in any other country
for that matter.
- What is the lineup of forces at the upcoming presidential election
in Georgia? Which candidate would be best for the country?
- I cannot rule out that the people will reelect Saakashvili. But
the opposition may rise against such a decision. It has influential
leaders supported by many people. Nobody knows what Saakashvili would
do if he loses the election. There could be unrest and the danger of
a civil war again.
- What can you say about Badri Patarkatsishvili?
- Badri came to Georgia thanks to me. He was on the wanted list,
together with Boris Berezovsky.
I had a connection to Badri, or rather our embassy in Russia did. When
we learned that Russia's First Channel (ORT), where Badri was a
commercial director then, was making a negative show about Georgia,
we only had to call Badri and he took the show off the air.
I once told Putin that we had granted a Georgian passport to the man
wanted in Russia. Putin asked if I was referring to Berezovsky. I
told him, No, Badri Patarkatsishvili. Oh Badri, he's not a bad guy,
Putin said.
Badri is now running for the presidency in Georgia. I once said
that if I were president of Georgia I would appoint Badri my prime
minister. He is a very clever man, he knows all about money and spent
a lot on charity. He is respected and loved in Georgia.
He is not in Tbilisi now. They have unearthed some information against
him, I don't know if this evidence is legitimate or not. Some say it
is not.
- A few words about the presidential election in Russia. Do you think
it is right that its outcome is almost predetermined?
- It is very important to me that Putin will remain at the helm,
one way or another, because he has a majority in parliament and the
people respect him.
Russians do not know [First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry] Medvedev as
well as they know Putin. So if Putin becomes prime minister, he will
actually be the top power in the country. I have heard that Medvedev is
an educated and well-informed man, but I have never met him personally.
- Do you have a formula for improving relations between Georgia
and Russia?
- Everything depends on the top leaders. I am not referring to
Medvedev as Russia's future president, but to Putin and the man
elected in Georgia.
They should move towards each other, but the first move must be made by
the Georgian president. However, if Putin makes it, this will further
improve his image, and everyone will say that he is a generous man.
RIA Novosti
16:00 | 20/ 12/ 2007
Ahead of the 16th anniversary of the formal dissolution of the Soviet
Union and establishment of the Commonwealth of Independent States,
Eduard Shevardnadze, a former Soviet foreign minister, spoke to Besik
Pipia, head of the RIA Novosti Bureau in Georgia, at his residence
in Krtsanisi.
- Eduard Amvrosievich, on December 21, 1991, in Almaty, the heads of
11 Soviet republics signed a declaration terminating the Soviet Union
and establishing a Commonwealth of Independent States. What preceded
that event?
Do you think the transformation of the Soviet Union into the CIS was
inevitable and if so, why?
- In the late 1980s, everything was heading towards the disintegration
of the Soviet Union. The disintegration was also accelerated by the
confrontation between Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Gorbachev, naturally,
was for a united Soviet Union, while Yeltsin was already president of
Russia. Perhaps he, too, was for preserving the Soviet Union, but he
and Gorbachev bitterly hated each other. We, the people close to them,
tried to somehow patch up things and end unpleasant conversations. But
we failed.
The process was hastened by a plot against Gorbachev, or rather against
the Soviet president. Before that there was my resignation. In the
Foreign Ministry, which I headed, about 30% of personnel were KGB
men. They informed me that a counter-revolution was being prepared. I
talked with the one and the other, but could convince neither. And
then, in protest against the counter-revolution, I resigned.
I made a public address and said it would be the shortest speech in
my life.
I said a dictatorship was coming and no one knew who the dictator
would be, and what would happen to perestroika, democracy and so
on. Gorbachev asked me to stay, but I left the hall, climbed into a
car, and was driven home.
About a month and a half later, Gorbachev went to Foros on
vacation. But on the way there I think he made a stopover in Minsk,
had a meeting with party activists and told them the threat of a
dictatorship was real and asked supporters of perestroika to show
more vigilance and not to let a dictatorship pass.
Then followed a putsch, exacerbating relations between the presidents
of the U.S.S.R. and Russia further. The disintegration of the state
could not be stopped.
- Georgia joined the CIS two years after the Commonwealth was
formed. Was it a forced move or a voluntary decision?
- I did not seek CIS membership: there was no great desire to do
so. Because after I read the Charter of the Commonwealth I saw it was
not the kind of organization to replace the Soviet Union. Yeltsin,
however, was insisting and several times rang me up, advising me to
join. I was not against it, but at that time Georgia already had
a parliament and 30 to 40 percent of its deputies were opposed to
entering the CIS, which they associated with the Soviet Union.
Then, about two years later, I was in Moscow and dropped in on Yeltsin
to tell him that I was ready to join the CIS despite opposition
in parliament.
There was the tragedy of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and I thought
the solution to the problem would depend on Russia.
- The problems remained frozen for many years, but recently Mikheil
Saakashvili, Georgia's third president, said he could return South
Ossetia to Georgia's jurisdiction within several months.
- I do not know. His friend, a former defense minister, said the same,
incidentally. Nothing came of that. Currently an election campaign is
under way, with presidential candidates lavishly handing out promises
right and left. He also said he would get Sukhumi back, but it would
not be simple.
And it can only be done through Russia. If Georgia could agree with
Russia and find solutions acceptable to Georgia, to Abkhazia and to
Russia, then the solution could be found.
I have talked with Putin. I am sure he is a man one can negotiate
with despite involved relations existing between Russia and Georgia
today. Putin is a man of his word.
Once when Putin was on vacation in Sochi, he rang me up and invited
me to join him in holidaying and even discuss some business. I came
and we met.
Putin proposed to me that the Abkhazian sector of the railroad be
restored to enable trains to run to Baku, Yerevan and even Turkey. I
did not object and made a reciprocal request: to return refugees to
the Galsky district.
The region in Soviet times had a population of 80,000 people, mainly
Georgians and was an area abundant in tea, citrus fruit, and nuts,
which fed nearly half of Abkhazia.
Putin picked up the receiver and called the Russian general commanding
the peacekeeping force there. He told him that settlers from the Gali
district were living in Mingrelian areas there. He instructed him to
collect those people and return them to the Gali district. He said
he had given his word to the Georgian president and would check the
fulfillment of his instruction in a few days' time. The full number
could not be mustered, but 50,000 to 60,000 refugees were able to
come back to the Gali district.
- Can you see the Soviet Union being restored?
- Absolutely not. Not only Georgia, but also all the other former
Soviet republics have become independent states. Take Kazakhstan,
a very rich country with all the mineral resources of Mendeleyev's
periodic table and Nursultan Nazarbayev as the lifetime president. It
is unlikely to give up its independence.
- Does the CIS have a future?
- Yes, it does, if it becomes truly effective and gains the ability
to influence the situation in all of its member countries.
- There are many rumors about your resignation from the post of
Georgia's president. Some say that Mikheil Saakashvili is your pupil
and the "rose revolution" was a way to hand power over to him. Others
say that you did not have the power to suppress the demonstrations. And
still others claim that it was Moscow who forced you to resign. Which
of these rumors is true?
- Moscow had nothing to do with it.
- Why then did Igor Ivanov, then foreign minister of Russia, come
to Georgia?
- He came as a friend. First he met with the opposition, and then
we discussed the situation. But he could not do anything for me. He
asked me to give him a plane to fly to Batumi and on to Moscow. This
is how his mission ended.
I was addressing parliament when Saakashvili, [Zurab] Zhvania and
other conspirators rushed in. I saw people armed with submachine guns,
handguns, knives and truncheons.
- Not roses?
- No, and I don't know why they called it the rose revolution. I
didn't see a single rose.
The situation was dangerous, and my bodyguards led me into the yard,
where I saw the opposition and my supporters, about 2,500 people in
all. I was told that I should brace up, that they would rally 100,000
people in my support the next day.
I saw it as an attempted coup, announced the state of emergency, and
went home. As I was riding in the car, I thought that I could do it,
because I still was the president and commander-in-chief, and so had
the power to issue orders to the army. The army had guns and tanks;
it was not a very large army, but it had enough weapons to win. But
there would be victims on both sides, and I could not allow anyone
to be killed.
I phoned the secretariat from the car to revoke the state of emergency
order. When I came home, my wife said: "What are you going to do? I
know what a state of emergency is: there will be blood."
I told her that there would be no bloodshed, but I would not be
president the next day because I would resign.
My son called from Paris, where he works for UNESCO, asking if there
would be bloodshed. I told him: No, there wouldn't be any.
The next day I invited the conspirators - Zhvania and Saakashvili -
and asked them how we would live after what happened yesterday.
Zhvania told me my resignation would be the least painful solution,
but they could not suggest it because they are my pupils.
I replied that we were wasting time, because I had decided to resign
the day before, adding that I was ready to help them with advice,
if they needed it.
Then there were elections, and Zhvania became prime minister. He was
later killed.
- Did they kill him or was it really "gas poisoning from a faulty
heater"?
- He was killed. They said he died of carbon monoxide poisoning,
but when our and American experts investigated the circumstances of
his death, they concluded that it was not gas poisoning. I don't know
where or how he was killed.
- Can you explain why the people demanded the resignation of
Saakashvili in early November?
- There is hunger in Georgia. I know that not all Russians are rich,
and there are problems in some Russian regions. But there is no hunger
in Russia, thanks to Vladimir Putin. He is a smart man and his policy
has helped to improve the people's living standards. But Georgians
are impoverished and hungry.
- What do you think about Tbilisi's reaction to public protests?
- When they learned that the people were coming to Tbilisi, the
president should have talked with them the same day. Had he promised
them half, or even one third, of what he is promising now, the people
would have gone home peacefully and there would be no problems.
The decision to close down the Imedia TV channel was a gross mistake;
nobody does this in other countries. Do all TV channels in the United
States praise President George W. Bush? No, many criticize him, but
nobody closes down TV channels in the US, or in any other country
for that matter.
- What is the lineup of forces at the upcoming presidential election
in Georgia? Which candidate would be best for the country?
- I cannot rule out that the people will reelect Saakashvili. But
the opposition may rise against such a decision. It has influential
leaders supported by many people. Nobody knows what Saakashvili would
do if he loses the election. There could be unrest and the danger of
a civil war again.
- What can you say about Badri Patarkatsishvili?
- Badri came to Georgia thanks to me. He was on the wanted list,
together with Boris Berezovsky.
I had a connection to Badri, or rather our embassy in Russia did. When
we learned that Russia's First Channel (ORT), where Badri was a
commercial director then, was making a negative show about Georgia,
we only had to call Badri and he took the show off the air.
I once told Putin that we had granted a Georgian passport to the man
wanted in Russia. Putin asked if I was referring to Berezovsky. I
told him, No, Badri Patarkatsishvili. Oh Badri, he's not a bad guy,
Putin said.
Badri is now running for the presidency in Georgia. I once said
that if I were president of Georgia I would appoint Badri my prime
minister. He is a very clever man, he knows all about money and spent
a lot on charity. He is respected and loved in Georgia.
He is not in Tbilisi now. They have unearthed some information against
him, I don't know if this evidence is legitimate or not. Some say it
is not.
- A few words about the presidential election in Russia. Do you think
it is right that its outcome is almost predetermined?
- It is very important to me that Putin will remain at the helm,
one way or another, because he has a majority in parliament and the
people respect him.
Russians do not know [First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry] Medvedev as
well as they know Putin. So if Putin becomes prime minister, he will
actually be the top power in the country. I have heard that Medvedev is
an educated and well-informed man, but I have never met him personally.
- Do you have a formula for improving relations between Georgia
and Russia?
- Everything depends on the top leaders. I am not referring to
Medvedev as Russia's future president, but to Putin and the man
elected in Georgia.
They should move towards each other, but the first move must be made by
the Georgian president. However, if Putin makes it, this will further
improve his image, and everyone will say that he is a generous man.